"Student-to-Student Panel "
Building and Using Virtual Worlds in Education
12 Noon - 1pm PST - November 21, 1998

Bonnie DeVarco: So for those of you who are here, we have students from Cornell
Bonnie DeVarco: UCSC students, Grad students from Art Center College of Design, Pasadena
Bonnie DeVarco: coming up on stage for a panel discussion on virtual worlds in Education
Bonnie DeVarco: Queenbee, can you introduce your students?
Bonnie DeVarco: And all of you who are here come up on stage?
Bonnie DeVarco: panelists that is
Cuzminnie: Here we be
Bonnie DeVarco: Michael Heim, would you like to introduce your students?
queenbee: We have Alan Turnquist, master programmer and good guy, and Chris Maher, a freshman moving into CS.
ommm: sure, i'd be happy to introduce the students
ommm: from Art Center College of Design
ommm: in Pasadena, California ommm: these are all builders of our world
ommm: which is called "accd" world (for Art Center College of Design)
ommm: it's an experimental world here in AW
ommm: nemo, cuzminnie, and sally are all
Bonnie DeVarco: and we have Kyla Sankey, Chad Rooney and Anita Roy Dobbs from UCSC
ommm: theorists and builders in accd world
ommm: names are Tom Mancuso, Simon Niedenthal, and Cole Case...
Bonnie DeVarco: So we can begin with a short intro statement from Mike's group, yes?
Bonnie DeVarco: about accd world
Cuzminnie: Take it, Tom sally: we tried to design a world that was between reality and fantasy
sally: and we wanted a space that would be compatible with the user's space
Cuzminnie: The important thing is to be true to what critic Clement Greenberg called the "inherent properties of the medium."
sally: we didn't want a perspectival space that declares itself to be somewhere else
Cuzminnie: i.e., What is unique about AW space that makes it different from realspace?
Bonnie DeVarco: [screenshots of accd are behind stage]
Strawberry Wine: i have a question
Cuzminnie: The ability to defy gravity and traditional construction techniques are good examples of AW's uniqueness.
Cuzminnie: Ask away SW
Strawberry Wine: why dont they improve the Servers in AW
sally: we also try to avoid text because it is grounding in a way similar to a horizon line
Cuzminnie: Damn good question SW, a little beyond my expertise though. Would anyone else care to field this one?
Strawberry Wine: i think its rather pathetic HenrikG: Limited resources I would guess
shard: I have a question...how did you determine what parameters you would work within -- where did you place the edge of your canvas, so to speak?
Strawberry Wine: i thought it was just me
"Illusion": I think AW runs great my problem is my own computers processor
sally: shard, what do you mean by edges of the canvas?
comfortably numb: i thnk, illusion, that will be the problem for many
kyzla: yes, it runs pretty good on my computer, even though it is a 486. and i even helped build a world on it too!
shard: every medium does have its limits, and when you release yourself from the bounds of reality or realism... how do you determine...
shard: ...what limits you will answer to?
Cuzminnie: I love painting analogies, being a painter myself. Do you refer to the edge of the visible space? Or the frame itself?
sally: well, we were thinking first of the potentials
sally: we thought that gravity less world was a new potential
shard: curious about your process (limitations of a medium are blessing as well as hindrance; limitless potentialities are daunting)
sally: and we wanted aesthetic events to occur in time as you move tharough space
Cuzminnie: There still needs to be a level of minimal familiarity as a limit, otherwise new users are easily disoriented.
sally: we tried to create a threshold experience when you enter the world
sally: something that tells you where you are and then releases you
Cuzminnie: Shard, your comments about the limitations of the medium are right on the money. Greenberg would love you!
Bonnie DeVarco: What has been your experience of other's perspectives on experiencing your world?
sally: for the most part people like it nemo: some have to be taught to fly
Strawberry Wine: do you think AW is too crowded or to Sparsely populated
zg: what is your experience of other worlds in aw?
Cuzminnie: In the Convention Hall it's definitely too crowded! This is a good-sized group though.
"RealAx": hi vip
vip: hi :)
Bonnie DeVarco: Has some of the feedback gone into new development in areas of your world ?
"RealAx": found a talk
Cuzminnie: I really like Mars a lot, but I'm quite partial to space exploration and desert landscapes.
nemo: we are actively seeking feedback, and look forward to the response to accd world during mike heim's talk there at 2pst
zg: have you visited many other worlds?
Strawberry Wine: im not i like worlds that resemle AW
zg: why strawberry?
Cuzminnie: One of the drawbacks to the AW eperience that Mike and I have discussed is the lack of risk and/or unpredictability in AW.
Strawberry Wine: beacuse its more realistic than fake zg: aw is realistic?
Strawberry Wine: like mars or atlantis etc
Strawberry Wine: thats true cuz
zg: strawberry - i think you need to get out more
shard: nemo, Cuzminnie, sally, what is the function of accd? what's its intended ... uh... experience offering?
Cuzminnie: NOTHING. is TRULY realistic if you have complete and total control in manipulating your environment.
zg: there are some great non-realistic worlds out there
"Illusion": I started on palace, uck, then found my way to Traveler, great! then found my way to here just this month. This is very hard on my processor, traveler was much easier on it, but understandable due to your av's and graphics here.
Strawberry Wine: i always have problems with the server
Strawberry Wine: yes zg it looks more like earth
"RealAx": VIP you should join the talk
zg: but - if you want reality - why not just step outside your front door?
sally: that's what i was trying to say, shard, about aesthetic events and movment
vip: i lake the other the man heh!!
Bonnie DeVarco: Let's take a look at the other end of the spectrum now
"RealAx": um, I was just testing
shard: that's our cue
"RealAx": :)
Bonnie DeVarco: And have the V-UCSC team talk a little bit about their world
zg: get ready sgard:)
vip: you are androgino ??
Bonnie DeVarco: just to juxtapose -- chad?
Strawberry Wine: what do you mean bonnie
"RealAx": no
Bonnie DeVarco: maybe you can talk about the goals of the ucsc project
chaderik: i think that while creating an imaginative environment , one can be constrained by their own creativity
vip: where do you like ?
vip: good! :))
kyzla: i think, strawbeerry, bonnie is referringto how V-UCSC is built to look like UC SAnta Cruz
chaderik: by trying to create a virtual space that emulates the environment of our real-world university...
kyzla: It was built wwith a purpose, to give a virtula tour of UCSC to prospective students
chaderik: we were forced to create new ways of building to achieve that enhanced realism

Cuzminnie: As a segue, I'd like to ask why the UCSC world is so heavily reality/represntationally based?
chaderik: things we would never had tried if we were creating a fantastical landscape
kyzla: yes, chad... thats what io meant to say
shard: It was commissioned by the Admissions office
[The V-UCSC is still a project under development].
drizldrazl: 0HEY VR
zg: that was the brief
shard: as a recruiting tool for the campus, to tour prospective students thru the space
kyzla: and is now owned by the admissions office... :)
Strawberry Wine: what is UCSC?
shard: Its reflection of the actual campus was its reason to exist
"rriner": "banana slugs and all?
Bonnie DeVarco: University of California, Santa Cruz
kyzla: UC SAnta Cruz
Cuzminnie: Are there Banana Slugs anywhere in your world;-)
drizldrazl: VR
Bonnie DeVarco: We thought about slug bots...
Strawberry Wine: what is UCSC?
ommm: hehe
kyzla: we were going to put in bana slug bots and derr bots (and dave bots) but it's still ebing constructed
zg: shard: slugs and all -- let's see... we were a bit underfunded and under-timed...
shard: the full slug treatment awaits further funding
Cuzminnie: Did admissions insist on the high level of realism? Or was that your guys' idea?
ommm: lol
zg: how long did the world take shard
Strawberry Wine: why did they make it to like exactly like it?
shard: Wine--University of California at Santa Cruz = UCSC
zg: from inception to delivery?
"Illusion": Day-O Day-o bananna slugs?
shard: how long did the world take, oy ... we worked like madpeople for two months
"Illusion": what the url to this world/ shard: the world is not yet public
Strawberry Wine: that sounds interesting
"Illusion": slug world i meant
zg: how big is the world shard?
kyzla: it's still a provate world, because admissions owns it
Strawberry Wine: is UCSC open
kyzla: UCSC is closed for now
nemo: how is this intended to supplement the experience of an actual campus tour? is it for out-of-staters?
shard: In order to make a virtual tour... shard: ...we needed extensive documentation...
kyzla: extensive..... shard: not the least reason being that our designers (modelers zg and HenrikG HOORAY!) were not in town.
shard: nor in country
zg: and how much experience did you guys have of AW building when you started?
Strawberry Wine: that is so good for me i am transfering to California State
shard: zg, no experience atall
zg: or in the same continent?
shard: nay, oceans apart
shard: verily
zg: :)
Strawberry Wine: but why dont they use UC Berkely or something
chaderik: one of the challenges we encountered was creating a world with intricate elevation changes to portray the mountainous landscape
chaderik: we rose to this challenge
zg: Berkeley are not as forward thinking as UCSC
nemo: solved how, c?
shard: Berkeley doesn't have Bonnie DeVarco there.
zg: indeed
kyzla: each UC is run seperately, kinda
zg: theres only oneBonnie de Varco
kyzla: yes, berkely doesn't have bonnie....
shard: Bonnie spearheaded the whole effort zg:
Bonnie DeVarco: But the project showed that AW has a very fast learning curve
shard: heheh, we're talking about bonnie while she's putting in new pictures
kyzla: yes, the hills qwere tricky, but with all our creativity (and a lot of zgs patience) we did it
Strawberry Wine: what is bonnie?
shard: she doesn't even have time to blush!
Bonnie DeVarco: And is exciting for students with any background
Strawberry Wine: i want to go there how do i see it?
kyzla: bonnie was the team leader and master of everything
shard: VUCSC is not a public world
"Illusion": What 3-d rendering program is used? ProVray?
shard: it's a world in progress
zg: :(
zg: aw
kyzla: do we have screen shots?
zg: thes pics are not renders
zg: they are screenshots
Strawberry Wine: i wanna see it
zg: of the world
Strawberry Wine: how so i go their bonnie
Bonnie DeVarco: There is a V-UCSC Exhibit in Zg world
ArveK: impossible to take good screenshots from this conference ;((
zg: we have a few bits of it Cuzminnie: Will it ever be a public world?
Bonnie DeVarco: And V-UCSC under development will debut early 1999
shard: Cornell... it'd be Really Great to explore non-reality based building and experiences... something to discuss soon, I hope.
Bonnie DeVarco: accd world will be featured during Michael Heim's talk at 2pm
shard: but if anyone ever Does want to do other reality-based building...
feyd: yes, it would, shard.
shard: ...we learned a lot of practical lessons...
"NornMan": Is this where we talk about creatures?
shard: oops, I meant not Cornell, but accd...
Cuzminnie: What plans do our colleagues at Santa Cruz have once the Admissions World is completed?
feyd: the possibiliteis of both realism and fantasy are interesting, and the ability to shift between them at will is valuable.
nemo: shard, would love to talk with you further
"NornMan": hello?????????
Bonnie DeVarco: They are not sure because it is such a big and useful place. It will enhance their Admissions outreach efforts at minimum.
nemo: compare notes chaderik: where ever we can help out
shard: lessons about translating from feet to meters ... creating a 2.5 to 1 aw to reality scale...
Bonnie DeVarco: It is not a little thing that can be "packaged"
Cuzminnie: Thank goodness!
Strawberry Wine: im going to zg is that where it is located?
Bonnie DeVarco: But it opens up opportunities for other students to learn to build their own camps
Bonnie DeVarco: campus...
kyzla: :)
chaderik: there is alink to the exhibit, right over by the pyramid
shard: Or to build models of computers... or molecules... the ideas of scaling and documenting may translate to many applications

DAN: Hola !
vip: hola dan aca hay una conferencia por isto no hablo :)
"NornMan": huh? kyzla: i think we're almost experts at documenting and scaling... :)
zg: no the V_UCSC is a closed world "NornMan": hola
Derrick W: Hi Norn, yo're cute
Cuzminnie: Do you plan on setting up the type of interdisciplinary science approach that Cornell has in the works?
shard: nemo, likewise -- the notion of real-stuff alongside un-real stuff is most intriguing to me...
vip: hola
"NornMan": Is this where we talk c2?
nemo: shard, add me to your contacts
HenrikG: hi Derrick:)
Derrick W: This is P2 shard: and as Bolter says in "Writing Spaces" -- we've really not begun to rethink the paradigms, we've no notion how to fully weild this new tool
vip: ;)
Derrick W: Hi henrik
DAN: :)
"Illusion": I think it would be nice to stay simple for the average user, You can build in AW but you cant change av's, in traveler you cant build but you can change av apperance for free, would be great to have both options in one world!!
zg: Hello Derrik ; 0 )
Cuzminnie: Shard, I totally agree. The surface has only begun to be scratched here.
ommm: nice contrast
zg: yu can change av's in AW
"Illusion": only if you pay
zg: $20 is very cheap
Bonnie DeVarco: Maybe our Cornell group can offer some closing comments?
Cuzminnie: Capitalism = Freedom in AW!
feyd: In some ways you can only go as far as with the medium as the audience has...
"Illusion": Yes but many users are young and have that $20 going to internet usage
kyzla: i'd love to hearabout cornell..
nemo: me too
Cuzminnie: Illusion, I'm being sarcastic.
zg: are you in the States Illusion
feyd: kyzla, do you have any specific questions?
"NornMan": hi
zg: and do you pay for local calls?
"Illusion": If ya wanna get rich you gotta appeal to the young kids, like the cigarette companies do :)
kyzla: tell me about what you've done with cornell..
feyd: I think Margaret/Queenbee explained the basics pretty well. the whole thing is still very much in the formative stages.
"Illusion": I dont pay for much :)
Cuzminnie: You got that straight Illusion!
zg: I would say that AW is as addictive as smoking - I do both ; 0 )
nemo: how do you approach the design of your world? what sort of constraints do you set yourself
vip: ;)
feyd: I spent last summer writing models in VRML to demonstrate some concepts about protein folding - models which will hopefully get ported to AW>
feyd: At present, we're exploring, playing with meidums like everyone else up here.
"Illusion": Id rather see advertisement signs in avatar worlds then get to use all of the functions for free, but hey Im cheep :)
zg: feyd - did you spend all summer developing thes emodels in VRML?
kyzla: wow. that's kinda cool. i guess eveyone is doing eveythign arund here...
feyd: heh, yes it seems so, kyzla. ;)
feyd: yes, zg, most of it.
kyzla: i learned VRML, but i'm one of these, i hate programming types... so it' didn't stick very well
zg: thats a longe development time
feyd: heh. it's an admitted mess, kyzla. i don't htink it's anywhere near ideal either.
Immigration Officer: Dr. Drs. Jan A.W. de Bruin of the Tilburg University will be appearing in the 'BOWorld' soon, for a discussion about the use of Virtual Worlds for providing information to future students
zg: for a coupla models (no disrespect intended)
kyzla: it's protein folding though...
Bonnie DeVarco: So I would like to close this session by thanking everyone and giving everyone the info on how to see more about each other's work
nemo: thanks for organizing, bonnie!!!
zg: molecules?
Cuzminnie: Thanks Bonnie
feyd: none taken, zg. That includes learning vrml in the first place, and finishing a bunch of other projects....
ommm: bravo to everyone on the panel, thanks!!
kyzla: yea bonnie!
sally: thanks, bonnie
DAN: Trato de buscar un avatar que te guste
zg: k -that puts things into perspective
chaderik: thanks all
ommm: clap, wave, clap, wave
zg: i tried vrml and gave up
Bonnie DeVarco: Michael Heim will be speaking in accd world at 2pm
feyd: don't blame you too much. ;)
Bonnie DeVarco: Cornell -- Queenbee do you have a booth?
vr: thanks bonnie
Cuzminnie: In closing, for our L.A. based guests, UCLA just scored. UCLA 7 USC 3
zg: thanks :)
Bonnie DeVarco: Make sure to follow Cornell's progress on the web site
DAN: En que parte de Brazil vives?
comfortably numb: lol cuz
Bonnie DeVarco: And the V-UCSC world can be seen in slide shows in the UCSC exhibit in Zg world
DAN: que es pq?
mjson: oh, yo're finished, I was away ICQing
shard: Thanks! I hope this begins a dialogue ... I find the possibilities of distance collaboration / note sharing to be ... very appealing!
Bonnie DeVarco: There are teleports to almost 20 education worlds out front
Bonnie DeVarco: in the pyramid to your left as you go out
vip: es abreviacion de porque
Cuzminnie: Vic, Simon, Mike,
Tom: gotta jam. Had a blast! Bonnie sez she'll post this discussion on the ccon.org site.
Bonnie DeVarco: We all now know each other's handles so we can telegram :-)
Cuzminnie: Thanks to our Banana Slug colleagues!
HenrikG: thanks Bonnie and all.. very interesting:)
Bonnie DeVarco: and Derrik Woodham of University of Cincinnati will be talking at 1pm in here
feyd: definitely, thanks all... this has been excellent.
Bonnie DeVarco: About the history of DAAP World
comfortably numb: eeya cuz!
comfortably numb: er.. Seeya, too
zg: thats 5 minutes Derrick
comfortably numb: :)
Bonnie DeVarco: The First Sculpture world in AW
Immigration Officer: Richard Wojcik of Boeing speaking in Pod 4 in 6 minutes
mjson: i did have a question to the UCSC guys, anyone still here?
Derrick W: Ok Zg!
shard: sure chaderik: yeah, right here
mjson: what more do you think UCSC world can add beyond ordinary 2D material?
kyzla: yes, UCSC
zg: isnt it the ONLY sculpture world in aw?
zg: community mjson
chaderik: a colaborative space to gather
Derrick W: Naturally,
chaderik: and educate one another
zg: and the best of course D
kyzla: a virtual classroom for distance learning
shard: experience... a place to discuss things with other students in real time...
mjson: aha, so there would be educational activities there?
shard: for prospective students, it's a good place to get a "feel" for the real
chaderik: yes, definitly as this progresses
shard: it's possibilities are completely untapped... just barely imagined
zg: mjson - there is a dmonstration of educational use of AW (webquests etc) in the Virtual High School
mjson: could it replace the "physcal" university one day do you think?
shard: nyet
zg: i think so shard
Immigration Officer: The boeing speech by Richard Wojcik has been moved to the Boeing world
zg: we can argue if u like :)
chaderik: also a place where students can create their own space together . . . .
Immigration Officer: When you enter AV98 click on BigBoard to teleport and see the schedule of speakers
shard: but it could supplement or extend the reach of the real, becoming another real space itself
vip: hola zg: hmm - nice pic derrick
HenrikG: don't forget you can learn about other places by visiting other worlds:)
shard: arguing with You, zg, is most enjoyable :) it must be your Style er something... better make way for next speaker, eh?
DAN: Estas en tu casa?
Derrick W: Thanks, I'm older now!
zg: indeed - he's tapping his foot in the wings :)
mjson: aha, thanks
vip: si
zg: older - surely not
DAN: Con quien vives?
kyzla: bye allm,, wonderful to have met you..
zg: thats one of its big advantages
nemo: mjson, are you enjoying yourself? how are thing in sweden?
kyzla: bye all, rather
feyd: see ya kyzla. bye all....
chaderik: bye-bye
zg: cya feyd
feyd: cya zg...
zg: till the next time :)
mjson: yes, the technology can be a bit annoying at times, but the discussions/talks has been interesting
nemo: see you back in accd world, mjson
mjson: c u nemo
chaderik: bye nemo


Art Center College of Design, Pasadena
Tom Mancuso - "sally"
Simon Niedenthal - "nemo"
Cole Case - "Cuzminnie"

Cornell Theory Center
Alan Turnquist - "feyd"
Chris Maher - "?"

University of California, Santa Cruz
Chad Rooney - "chaderik"
Anita Roy Dobbs- "shard"
Kyla Sankey - "kyzla"

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