SocioAnthro SIG
Transcript for the Online Reading Group

The following meeting took place in SenseMedia Snow on 15 July 1998.

In attendance (by order of appearance):
somms: Jon Maul
iona: T.L.Taylor
Archetypist: Mike Sellers
colorMap: Scott Moore
COBOL_Guest and Sisyphus: Rena Keslar
keith: Keith Crouch
Puff: Snow user
bedouin: Snow user
Dorcas: Deb Cowden

This transcript was compiled by Jon Maul (aka somms). Thanks to him for recording it. The log picks up from a discussion of setting user names and aliases. -- T.L.Taylor

Blue Atrium
Reminiscent of a 19th century greenhouse, this is one of the architecturally odd
(if not haunting) spaces in the CronenWeth. Tall curved beams meet straight above
you to form an impressive dome. Glass, long clouded over, runs from the floor to
the dome's top, allowing in diffuse light. The room is circular and vines cover
portions of the curved walls. An ornate stone bench sits in the center of the
room near a table of similar styling. You can hear water dripping slowly from
A stone clock set into the frame work shows the times from around the world. A
warning sign hangs from the ceiling. A kiosk with an onyx screen sits near the
wall with the title CU-SeeMe stenciled across the front. somms is doing a keg
stand over in the corner behind a fern leaf.
iona and keith are sitting on the bench.
You see a carved plaque and Box of Donuts here.
Archetypist, colorMap, Puff, bedouin and Dorcas are here.

Obvious exits are:
east to the Lobby
north to A Bland Office
down to Boiler Room
gateway to Throne room
northwest to The Tool Closet
in to A hole in the wall

somms says, "to make it easier for people to talk to you, we encourage 'aliases'.
Short (abbriviations of your name, or one or two characters, ie 'sm' is my alias)
aliases are prefered."

iona says, "nah, that'd be no fun"

iona winks

Archetypist smiles

iona nodnods about aliases

somms says, "@addalias < alias > to me"

iona says to colorMap, "is rena coming?"

colorMap says, "she's working on it."

colorMap laughs!

iona nods, "cool"

somms says to iona, "which joke?"

iona says to somms, "oh wow, you got that? wasn't that before i discoed?"

somms says to iona, "just before you discoed"

iona says to somms, "the what more do you need one ;)"

somms smiles at iona.

iona has no clue what colormap is laughing about though

iona grins

iona hangs a lag sucks sign around her neck

colorMap says, "Rena - we are both harried and she hasn't even tried to get in yet."

Archetypist says, "heh.  I can set "arch" as an alias but not "at" -- appears to
be a reserved word (and ar is taken)"

somms nods to Archetypist.

somms says to Archetypist, "we have about 600 players, a lot of the good aliases
are taken."

Archetypist says to somms, "ah, the problems with global namespaces :)"

somms smiles at Archetypist.

colorMap says, "ah, the saafeguard against spoofing."

Archetypist says, "well maybe this will get us started: on our network, we
require unique usernames, but allow non-unique nicknames"

Archetypist says, "it works, so long as people can always figure out who the
unique username is behind the common nickname"

COBOL_Guest teleports in.

iona nods to colorMap.

Archetypist says, "also, we take care of collisions by appending (username) to
nicknames after the first one in a given location"

iona smiles hello to guest

iona says to Archetypist, "what ways to folks usually figure out by?"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "to speak just type "text"

somms says, "I like the complete unique usernames... After a while people are
known around the community of MOO's in general.  I have the same name on about 20
different systems, and people usually know it's me."

iona has no clue if guest knows that or not

colorMap says, "That's a solution - everyone still is uniquely identifiable."

Archetypist says to iona, "we're still putting this in: RMB on someone's name
tells you their username, description, etc."

iona nods to somms.

Archetypist says, "being uniquely identifiable is crucial -- and the malleability
of online identities is a major problem for us..."

iona says to somms, "have you ever run into someone else with your name? oh, you
have haven't you? i think i remember that"

iona says to Archetypist, "problem in what way?"

somms nods to iona and says, "people from a place called CyberSphere log on and
constently ask if I'm him, and vice versa."

Archetypist says to iona, "several ways: we need current identity and past
identity -- who have you been? -- in order to set the stage for trust,
cooperation, and eventually community"

iona says to somms, "do you mind? or worry about your rep? you said once he is
cool though right?"

somms finds that his stucky username is never taken though ;)

iona grins at somms.

iona says to somms, "can't imagine why ;)"

Archetypist says, "think back on the "rape in cyberspace" article -- the
indivdiual behind that was able to come back as someone else, and there was
nothing anyone could do about it"

colorMap says, "Using social capital is a boon to system admins also as it
distributes social responsibility."

somms says to iona, "It's a bit weird... I don't mind that someone else is using
my name (or vice versa), it's people asking me about once a week if I'm him that
really gets to me."

iona says to Archetypist, "i don't recall much about your system. what kinds of
things are folks doing that require trust, coop, etc?"

iona nods to colorMap.

COBOL_Guest shy smile

Archetypist says to iona, "well, we're just getting started.  But even something
as simple as "do I want to play chess with you" requires that, to some degree, I
have an idea of who *you* are"

somms says to Archetypist, "Not quite... he used a bot as I recall.  A 'spoof' so
to speak.  And all she had to do was @gag the bot.  Why she didn't, I'm not quite

iona says to Archetypist, "the story behind that article is much more complicated
than originally described."

Archetypist says, "soon, we'll be enabling people to form their own groups,
families, communities, etc."

Archetypist says, "then we'll really need identity as a basis for trust and

COBOL_Guest says, "excuse my interruption, am finally understanding my
surroundings and wanted to say hello"

iona smiles at COBOL_Guest.

somms cheers at COBOL_Guest.

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "no problem. good to have you join us. are you from the
mailing list?"

Archetypist says, "good to have you here... "

colorMap nudges COBOL_Guest.

Archetypist says, "wait wait"

Archetypist says, "don't tell us"

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "If you want a unique name, you need to @request. 
'@request name for email'"

iona grins

COBOL_Guest says, "had i had time to register, i would be Sisyphus"

Archetypist says, "see -- this is a great example"

COBOL_Guest says, "you would know me on the mailing list as Rena"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "you can still register"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "ah, hello there :)"

Archetypist says, "Guest has no identity within the group -- we know nothing
about him/her"

COBOL_Guest giggle

somms nods to Archetypist.

COBOL_Guest says, "sorry to ruin the guessing"

iona says to Archetypist, "actually, if you look at them you know a little ;)"

Archetypist says, "awwww"

somms says to Archetypist, "It's invented a new forum if you ask me... gursting."

colorMap says, "I guess we have to trust guest and establish identity from here."

iona has been getting help requests so is happy to know when someone gets in okay

iona smiles

iona grins at somms.

Archetypist says, "yes, precisely: identity based on behavior rather than
external appearance or tag"

iona says, "yeah, i'm not so sure that all spaces share the same trust/identity requirements"

colorMap says, "I would say they are norms established by the participants, but
influenced by the system."

Archetypist says, "I know of... and okay, have participated in identity-munging exercises that would really throw people for a loop if they knew"

iona nods to colorMap.

iona says, "and that those can (and should) vary from world to world"

Archetypist asks, "how do you mean, Colormap?"

iona notes that they even vary *within* worlds which is also key

somms has gursted himself.

iona grins

Archetypist says to somms, "gursted?"

colorMap says, "If the software allows spoofing, then the trust rules will be different than a system which does not allow spoofing."

Archetypist asks, "different, or absent?  can real lasting trust be established
when spoofing is un-preventable?"

iona says, "and the expectation about the nature of a space also have a huge

iona says to Archetypist, "yes"

Archetypist says, "or rather, when its easily do-able"

somms says to Archetypist, "When you log on as a guest, but also have a char. 
When you interact with people who know your char, but do not know that the guest
and the char are one and the same."

Archetypist says, "givent hat people can and do spoof in the real world :)"

iona grins

Archetypist says to somms, "ah I see.  Yes, a common game.  "

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "holler if you need any help"

iona smiles at COBOL_Guest.

colorMap says, "I would think so, it requires a lot longer time to establish and
if much more tenuous."

Archetypist says, "and perhaps more robust in the long run"

somms says, "Spoofing is possible here... but the longer you moo, the more
difficult it is to spoof you."

colorMap says, "right, Somms, it's about behavior establishing identity."

iona says, "trust is not a blanket thing though. even within a world there are
variations of trust"

COBOL_Guest says, "to iona just trying to acquaint myself with my surroundings
and still follow the conversation"

Archetypist says, "given that trust is then inherent in symbols -- shared
knowledge -- that is more difficult to spoof"

COBOL_Guest smile

iona nods and smiles to guest

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "to direct your speech to someone, just type -name

colorMap says, "another aspect, I think of forming communities - shared

somms says, "the object oriented basis here allows us to directly track where the
spoof orginated.  @paranoid."

COBOL_Guest says, "-iona ahhhhhh. was trying to figure that out."

iona thinks the power/meaning of a spoof is also contingent on the social setting
it is done in

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "without the quote mark."

iona grins at COBOL_Guest.

Archetypist says, "that's why, as somms says, the longer you moo the more
difficult you are to spoof -- the knowledge of how you interact is too well known
to others"

COBOL_Guest big grin

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "you can do :grins big ;)"

Archetypist says to colorMap, "yes, shared experience definitely"

somms says to Archetypist, "I was actually refering to the fact that if you are
intimit with the system, you know *how* a spoof is done, and can track it."

Archetypist says to somms, "ah, true.  Mostly.  But if I give you my password,
you can log on as me and spoof me perfectly, from a technological POV"

somms says to Archetypist, "but your explination is also quite vaild, in my

somms nods to Archetypist.

iona says, "not just about your established identity though. there is @paranoid
as somms mentioned, but also, spoofing has social meaning. a spoof in one context
might be radically different in meaning in another, despite same content"

Archetypist says to iona, "example?"

iona says, "spoofing in fact might be a sign of being known or cohesion"

somms says to Archetypist, "albeit,  I can track your login site, and compare it
to other char's login sites.  I track down multiple characters in that fashion."

colorMap asks, "If it were physically possible to allow you into my skin,
shouldn't I be concerned about trusting you with that?"

Archetypist says to iona, "you mean spoofing becomes a form of cant or jargon?"

somms says, "are light-hearted playfullness, vs a rape."

somms says, "are/or"

iona says to Archetypist, "if somms spoofs me now, or someone else i know well
here, it has a playful meaning, a sense of being seen and known. in a group of
friends, you might have a good laugh. in a group where i know no one, it is
different. if an outsider does it here, while i am amongst friends, it is
different as well"

colorMap says to iona, ""yup.  As the parodying in Dreamscape showed.  On one
side, it was a political statement.  On the other side, it was considered

Archetypist says to iona, "excellent point"

iona nods to colorMap.

Archetypist says to iona, "every group decides what forms of humor
(misinformation) are allowable :)"

iona says, "with all these things, my main point is usually that actions exist in
social contexts, which makes hard and fast rules a tough one i think"

iona nods to Archetypist.

Archetypist says, "agreed, iona..."

Archetypist says, "but..."

iona says, "yep. i think we have to speak more about open systems, changeable,
socially-contextualized systems"

iona nods and smiles for the "but"

somms makes a hard and fast rule.  no spoofing. :)

iona grins at somms.

Archetypist says, "i still think there is a basal expectation that, excluding
pre-knowledge of a more-constant "you", that the "you" you are today will bear a
strong reseemblance to the "you" you'll be tomorrow"

iona says to somms, "though, even that, i've seen you spoof yourself ;)"

colorMap says to somms, "That's one of the few hard and fast rules I really stand

iona says to somms, "or some form of spoof i guess you'd call it"

somms nods to iona and says, "and the person I spoofed booted me on their system

iona grins at somms.

somms nods to colorMap.

Archetypist says, "as part of _establishing_ a social context, a certain amount
of integrity of identity is presumed, I believe -- after it's established, a gret
deal more freedom is acceptable within the group"

iona says to Archetypist, "i'm not so sure. again, i think it depends on the
system. remember, in many places folks walk around with more than one "them""

keith has disconnected.

iona grins at somms.

iona says to somms, "did he do that on purpose? ;)"

somms had nothing to do with it.  he swears.

iona chuckles

Archetypist looks dubious

iona was just joking about a disconnect

iona says to Archetypist, "or were you dubious about my previous statement?"

iona chuckles

Archetypist says to iona, "true, but even there there is a *presumption* that
there is a core individual behind a perhaps indefinable group of individuals"

colorMap says to Archetypist, "So, in addition to unique identity (supported by
the software), shared expereince and consistant behavior establish identity."

iona lost her own thread there

Archetypist says to colorMap, "well, I think it goes a lot further than that..."

iona says to Archetypist, "i think that core presumption is complicated by many
people's experience and i also don't know that it's the most interesting way for
us to explore these worlds"

Archetypist says to colorMap, "oops, I think I misconstrued your statement,

colorMap says to Archetypist, "I bet. ;)"

colorMap says to Archetypist, "Oops, I was betting on more to it.  not you
misconstructing my statement."

iona chuckles

Archetypist says to iona, "it may be a difference of viewpoint... I'm more
interested these days in making online worlds viable for most people, more than I
am exploring the fringes of what is possible in terms of identity-munging with

iona says to Archetypist, "ah, but it's not a fringe thing. i'm hearing this kind
of stuff from lots of regular folk i interview. the trouble is, many theorists
and stuff just try and shove some of this experience back into old theoretical
models (that themselves have been open to critique for awhile now)"

Archetypist says to iona, "I was just talking earlier with a guy who's mud allows
you to "embody" a variable number of bodies at the same time -- having a body get
killed isn't that big of a deal.  Identity is still an important issue there,
though it manifests differently"

colorMap says to Archetypist, "I have a similar interest, there."

iona notes most people she speaks with struggle with language for their
experience. going back and forth between "core" and "distributed" frameworks

Archetypist says to colorMap, "sorry, I put my own overlay onto your earlier
statement :) (like that nevr happens)..."

The housekeeper arrives to cart keith off to bed.

iona says, "sure, identity is always important, and the question of how multiple
bodies complicates/nuances it is key"

Archetypist says to colorMap, "I've been doing a lot on establishing a group
identity -- that seems to me to be the catalytic event in forming a community.
Some of the things that go into that are known identities between the
individuals, shared experience, and shared values or goals"

Archetypist says, "(afk)"

iona acks realizing she never turned on a log...

iona grabs past stuff

Archetypist says, "on the phone all -- just a sec"

somms has been logging.

iona says to somms, "great. can you send me what you have? i missed part when i
bailed out"

somms nods to iona.

COBOL_Guest says to colorMap, "testing directing speech"

COBOL_Guest says, " sorry to be such a newbie nuisance"

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "now might be a good time to request, if you haven't

iona smiles at the good break for rena

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "nah, no problem. test away :)"

colorMap peers around suspiciously.

iona grins at colorMap.

colorMap grins.

iona says to colorMap, "i'd forgotten i'd already looked at ya ;)"

Archetypist says, "sorry all.  Getting some big news on the phone.  I'll brb."

iona notes that persistence of embodied presence in wa is nice ;)

iona nods to Archetypist.

colorMap says to iona, "has not my paint-patched self blinded you yet?"

iona chuckles

iona says to colorMap, "it is quite striking here"

iona winks at colorMap.

iona wonders what an armillary is (weapons and such?)

somms says, "@peek 79 on *humor"

COBOL_Guest says, " I'm using zmud and trying to set my name but can't seem to
figure it out."

iona laughs

iona says, "that's cool"

colorMap has reconnected.

Archetypist says, "..."

iona says, "oh, tell it again for colormap"

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "you need to @request a character."

colorMap says to iona, "You made me spontaneously combust!"

iona grins at colorMap.

iona says to colorMap, "i do have that effect sometimes"

iona chuckles

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "@request name for email"

colorMap studiously ignores iona.

iona says to colorMap, "somms gave this right before you left - @peek 79 on 

colorMap grins.

iona chuckles, "thanks alot ;)"

colorMap says to somms, "Dark humor, eh?"

somms grins at colorMap.

colorMap snickers.

COBOL_Guest says, " tried to @rename per the help file and received Permission

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "you need to @request a character."

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "@request name for email"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "once you get a character you log back in with it"

COBOL_Guest asks, " so I type "@request " minus the quotes?"

somms says, "ie, @request bob for  "

COBOL_Guest says, " ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

iona grins

COBOL_Guest says, " ok. the light just went on."

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "minus the quotes ;)"

iona chuckles

iona says to somms, "i keep getting booted at cmoo it seems"

colorMap says to COBOL_Guest, "If I could reach you I'd whack you. :)"

iona wonders why all this funky connection trouble today

somms hmms... cmoo is lagging.  keith must be rendering porno movies.

iona grins at somms.

iona says to colorMap, "oh, i thought you two were in the same location. or is it
like her desk is the other side of the room kinda deal? ;)"

iona can't even get back in it seems

COBOL_Guest says, " other side of the bay kinda deal :-)"

iona nods and smiles, "ah"

somms got booted too.  the entire lab seems to be down.

iona asks, "which side are you each on?"

iona nods to somms.

Archetypist says, "still here..."

colorMap says to iona, "We are virtual partners - it's safer that way."

iona grins

iona nods to Archetypist.

COBOL_Guest says, " you have to pardon me while I live up to the stereotype of my
hair color"

iona laughs

iona grins at COBOL_Guest.

colorMap says, "I'm East Bay, she's SF."

COBOL_Guest says, " much safe, otherwise he might not live to see his next bday"

iona nods, "ah, okay, cool. i'm ex-east bay myself"

Archetypist says, "back..."

iona grins at COBOL_Guest.

COBOL_Guest says, " hey, I'm reading the help files, it's not completely my fault
I couldn't find @request in them!"

iona says to Archetypist, "wb :)"

iona hmms and thinks it's just help request no?

somms smiles at COBOL_Guest and say, "Yeah, for some reason requesting a
character isn't in the LambdaCore help system."

colorMap says to Archetypist, "Good news, I hope."

iona says, "but then again, you have to know the term request to get that"

somms says, "although ?@request works."

Archetypist says, "well, large, personal news.  "

Archetypist says, "I'm east bay too"

COBOL_Guest says, " thank you somms for that vindication."

somms is ex-west bay area.

iona smiles wistfully for the east bay

somms says, "er, east bay area."

iona smiles wistfully for all of california

somms flips his map upside down.

COBOL_Guest says, " i am *trying* to be self-sufficient"

Archetypist says, "beautiful here right now -- about 80 or so and very sunny :)"

iona grins at somms.

iona says to Archetypist, "lucky. humid and 90 here. bah"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "where are you now?"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "cambridge"

somms says, "humid, hot, and wet here."

iona says to somms, "that doesn't sound fun either"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "my friend Simon just arrived Monday from Cambridge :)"

iona actually just today exchanged her cal license for a mass one :(

Archetypist says, "well, shall we descend into "what's your major" or have we
exhausted the online version of trivial smalltalk? :)"

somms says to iona, "the only people that choose to live in the midwest are
people that haven't lived anywhere else."

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "oh? cool. visit or move?"

iona grins at somms.

colorMap looks sadly at iona

iona grins at arch, "hey, smalltalk is a crucial component of community"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "move to start a new company here, he's a professor

iona nods to color, "it is sad isn't it. i've put it off for years. finally had
to do it"

somms had to give up his cal license... then his alaska license.  now he had a
crappy illinois license.

COBOL_Guest says to Archetypist, "besides, I'm new here. "

Archetypist says, "so it is: the Watering Hole archetype"

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "wow, cool. what kind of company?"

iona patpats somms

Archetypist grins sheepishly.  He still has his Oregon license

somms says, "which I have to renew, cause I don't want a red one."

iona says to Archetypist, "what? you didn't trade that baby in for a cal one?
that's silly ;)"

iona says to somms, "red one?"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "computer, whatelse? :) telephony, internet related."

somms nods to iona and says, "under 21 is ablaze in bright red."

iona nods and smiles to guest, "ah, of course"

Archetypist says to iona, "going to DMV to do that is #83 on my list of top ten
things to do one of these days"

iona grins at somms.

iona nods and chuckles to arch

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "light is flashing over my head again here, i meant
cambridge, england, you obviously meant mass"

iona nods and smiles, "oops, yep. sorry, i should've said. that mistake happens
enough for me to know better"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "i lived in VT for a time, them folks back there didn't
have such nice things to say about the folks 
down the mountain"

iona grins at COBOL_Guest.

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "i'm hoping to go there for bread and puppet this year.
have you been to that?"

somms says to COBOL_Guest, "sounds like alaskans and the 'lower 48'"

iona has really only driving through vt a couple times

iona grins

Archetypist smiles

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "no, afraid i did not. i lived there from 12yrs to 19,
mostly in school and not too exposed."

iona nods to COBOL_Guest.

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "travel was almost always to CA"

somms flips through this article... It's got what sounds like sound rules for an
online gaming community... what happens when it's purely social?

Archetypist says, "I really like AJ and agree with her on most things... but this
article didn't do a lot for me"

iona says to somms, "just got that"

iona apologies for that last interuption

colorMap says to somms, "Is this Amy Jo Kim's article?  This was adapted for the
game confrence."

somms nods to colorMap.

Archetypist rummages through his huge piles of articles looking for AJ's...

colorMap says to somms, "In an old New Media article somewhere around here, she
has the same steps in a broader context."

Archetypist says, "oh, and an armillary is a device that shows north, or
sometimes shows the paths of the planets (someone asked earlier) -- sometimes
associated with alchemists and such; embematic and archetypical to me :)"

iona says to Archetypist, "in what ways? did you find it lacking some key

somms nods to iona.

Archetypist says, "well, yes... nuts, i can't find it.  hang on..."

iona nods about the armillary

Archetypist says, "also, I really do want to make it clear that I respect Amy and
what she has to say -- she's definitely on top of things"

iona nods to Archetypist.

Archetypist says, "dang.  reprinting now.  sigh."

iona nods and smiles

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "btw, did you get your char yet?"

Archetypist says, "okay, I need to amend what I said before..."

Archetypist says, "Amy's article says a lot of good things, for both gaming and
social environments"

COBOL_Guest says to iona, "@request was denied, I must send email. sending that

iona says to COBOL_Guest, "somms can help you"

Archetypist says, "but... I'm not sure I agree, for example, on the need for the
Creation Myth.  This will happen on its own if the community thrives, but
creating one will not necessarily make the community thrive.  It's putting the
cart before the horse."

iona nods, "yeah, i've been in a lot of vibrant worlds (muds for example) that
don't have several of the components she mentioned"

colorMap says to Archetypist, "While a creation myth my not be required, it sure
gives the initial group a kick start in forming around something."

Archetypist says, "but an internal, emergent myth is much more powerful,
meaningful, and binding than an externally imposed one"

iona says to colorMap, "did that play a big role (and in what way) for ds?"

somms says, "I've found that it's only after people become apart of the community
that they even care about the creation."

Archetypist says to iona, "ds?"

iona nods to somms, "that's a good point. and in fact, many folks who are part of
communities still don't care about those stories. i interview quite a few folks
in dreamscape (ds, sorry) who don't really 'do' the mythology part of it, but
still consider it their community"

Archetypist says, "shared history and myth are critically important to a
community, but only if they emerge from the community rather than being placed on
it from the outside"

iona says, "but this is linked to the fact i think that even within a given
space, there are subcultures that have their own norms, etc"

somms knows he's bored many a youngster's ears about how snow came about, and
can't answer all the questions some of the older folks have about it.

keith teleports in.

iona says to Archetypist, "dreamscape is a graphical world btw. the fujitsu one"

keith looks around.

iona smiles heyya to keith

somms waves at keith.

Archetypist says to iona, "right, I know of it"

keith sits down on the bench.

colorMap says, "Being there in the beginning of Dreamscape, the creation myth was
more prominent and, IMHO, helpful in getting a core group of people together."

keith . o O ( oh, yes, the reading group. )

iona smiles at keith.

Archetypist says, "rats. afk.  my apologies"

iona nods to Archetypist.

iona says to colorMap, "it's interesting to me though how many folks i run into
over there that don't know, or even care to know, about that side of things"

colorMap says, "Otherwise, I seriously think we would have had a lot of 'What do
we do' dispersion which undermines the cohesivness for cultural (community) take

COBOL_Guest says to colorMap, "in what way do you feel the creation myth brought
the core group of people together?"

iona says, "i think that's why i say that using this term community is tricky.
even in one world people often operate under very different sets of norms/values

somms nods to iona.

colorMap says to iona, "Right.  Support of the DS creation myth got dropped after
the first few months largely because we were running to keep up with supporting
the people coming in."

iona nods to colorMap.

iona says to colorMap, "so how did it function initially?"

iona notes that it is interesting though that there is a section of folks who
still 'use' it and another who don't

colorMap says to iona, "Well, let me think way back.  It helped establish the
support functions of Oracles and Acolytes.  it helped mask that they were
business and allowed them to be a little more acceptable by the people coming

iona nods to colorMap.

iona asks, "hmm, do you think if it had been a free system it would have been
less neccessary?"

colorMap says, "No. And the main reason is that Fujitsu (even if it were free)
had particular aims for that world - to be the flagship of the technology."

colorMap says, "With out somethign to guide the direction of the initial
community, it may have gone a direction which would have not been long-term
sustaining or morally unsupportable by Fujitsu."

colorMap says, "Please note, that this explaination does not mean I feel this way
abotu all communities. ;)"

iona asks, "that's interesting. so then i wonder if there is a larger vision in
mind for a space, is that what makes that kind of thing necc.?"

iona grins at colorMap.

COBOL_Guest says to colorMap, "do you feel it would be accurate to say that the
type of "community" or history that Fu creaed for DS was done so to appeal to a
certain group of people who already had expressed interest?"

somms says, "that reminds me of snow's orginal 'theme'... it used to be based off
of Snow Crash, but for as long as I've been here, it hasn't been supported."

iona says to somms, "do you know if the theme was useful in the beginning?"

colorMap says to iona, "Take a look at Hotel Silicon.  No less of a community
than in DS, but Fujitsu mgmt has routinely bucked against the wishes of the
community because it went a less-than desirable direction.  (In other words, it
didn't die after beta)"

somms says to iona, "I think yes and no.  No to the people that migrated from
Lambda and Chiba, yes to the newbies that did a web search of Snow Crash and
stumbled across it."

iona nods to colorMap.

keith ignored the theme since before the site was public. He followed one of the
admin's here.

somms nods to keith.

keith always ignores theme. :P

colorMap says to somms, "I used the knowledge of Snow Crash to chose a name which
would fit more with the environment.  It influenced my choices."

iona says to colorMap, "always strikes me that hotel is a great example of there
being a community but folks not wanting to acknowledge it because it didn't fit
the 'clean' definition of one"

iona nods to somms.

iona grins at keith.

colorMap agrees with iona

somms nods to colorMap and says, "I find thats often the case.  Newbies (as in
new to snow) generally seek out the theme, and that colors their view of the
world. Old timers to MOO in general, often ignore it, and look at it as another

colorMap says to iona, "Wait.  Theres a 'clean' definition of community? eg"

iona thinks the most general sense of snow crash (and cpunk more broadly)
influenced some stuff she's done here

iona grins at colorMap.

iona says to colorMap, "oh, was that not an evil grin?"

iona chuckles and is thinking you are bringing ds emotes here but maybe not

somms says, "But there's also the creation (not a myth), and people take that
even more seriously."

iona says to somms, "here there is?"

somms nods to iona and says, "Snow was brought up to ease up the tension of
chiba. consequently, chiba stopped taking char requests, and since then bad blood
is all over the place."

colorMap says to iona, "Consider it my forgien accent."

iona grins at colorMap.

iona says to colorMap, "ah, i like that ;)"

iona nods to somms.

iona says to somms, "yeah, that's one of those bits of info that only makes some
sense, or has some importance, given context i think. "

Archetypist says, "..."

somms nods to iona and says, "which goes back to my view on creations... the
newbies couldn't care less, the old timers are very curious."

iona nods to somms.

colorMap says to iona, "I think there are parallels between Snow and DS with
those here who buy into the context and those who don't"

Puff teleports in.

somms waves at Puff.

iona says, "right. i think that's why this idea of rule always sits a bit funny
with me. who the 'players' are, and the social context, makes a huge difference"

colorMap says to iona, "I've missed what you are meaning about rules."

iona says to colorMap, "yeah, maybe so. though it's funny, i don't really know
anyone here (or haven't met them yet) that stick with the snow thing in any real
way. unlike ds where you have aco's (and it seems they are one of the main rp
participants) doing myth stuff"

iona says to colorMap, "sorry, i was kind of interchanging terms. she says
principles. guidelines. that kind of thing"

colorMap says to iona, "You mean imposed from some higher power or social norms?"

iona says to colorMap, "well, it seemed the broader discussion on the list was
what are the guidelines/principles/rules to build community by. mike seems to
want to do bottom up stuff, but still is invested in finding this handful of key
things. it's those i'm not sure about"

COBOL_Guest has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove COBOL_Guest.

iona says to colorMap, "and in aj's article, she comes up with the 12 principles"

iona . o O ( did rena get her char i guess? )

Puff says, "Rape cyberspace was a farce."

iona nods to Puff.

Archetypist  seems to be missing all the good conversation

iona says, "well, farce in as much as it was a setup to initiate a point. staged
so to speak"

Archetypist says to Puff, "how so?"

Puff says, "As was the subsequent lynching in cyberspace..."

Archetypist says to iona, "ah, I see. "

iona thinks puff and iona are using farce differently

Puff says, "Was it staged?  Are we talking about the Mr. Bungle thing?  That's
the article most people refer to when they use that phrase."

iona nods to Puff.

Sisyphus teleports in.

somms waves at Sisyphus.

iona smiles hello to sisyphus

iona says to Sisyphus, "welcome back :)"

Sisyphus says to iona, "thanks :)"

colorMap says to iona, "Re: the key factors to community.  I admit I was not sure
about it, but am finding that I am getting more and more into a position where I
very much need measurable definitions such as Mike is seeking."

Sisyphus smile

iona asks, "hmm, in what ways? and what kind of measures?"

colorMap says to iona, "Part of it is in getting the whole online community issue
beyond a few niche areas of the internet."

somms says, "I think knowing about these key factors will definetly help in
creating a solid base for a community, but as the sole base, as iona says, there
are too many differeing factors to rely on them."

iona says to colorMap, "ah yep. i brought this up waaaay back actually. the
underlying intent of building large growing communities without participant loss
seems to be beneath many of these discussions"

colorMap says to somms, "Right.  I am willing to admit that whatever I come up
with is relatively arbitrary - most models of systems are."

Puff asks, "iona, can you give me a URL for AJ's article?"

colorMap says to iona, "Agreed. Communities of all forms are dynamic creatures."

somms says to Puff, ""

iona says, "it's interesting because in the past couple decades there has been
more and more work done on smaller groups, fluctuating memberships, subcultures,
etc. so it's interesting to me to see this opposite move in ve stuff toward large

iona says to Puff, "check out it's
on there"

iona says to somms, "oops, thanks ;)"

somms holsters his smoking web slinger.

iona grins at somms.

iona says to colorMap, "i would say it's not just arbitrary but we have to think
in terms of contingent as well"

colorMap says to iona, "I meant a relative arbitrariness - does that make sense?"

iona smiles and thinks so

iona says, "i think what i wonder when i read aj's 12 principles, is does it take
into account the kinds of things we find in online spaces that may not have
direct maps to offline stuff. here is the question of multiple bodies/identities
(though identities much much less so and there is other interesting work on this)
gets raised"

Puff says, "The rape in cyberspace article was quite farcical.  Melodramatic
posturing disguised as pseudojournalism."

somms says to Puff, "in other (shorter) words, hype?"

Puff says, "No."

Puff says, "Hype has specific meanings. "

iona says, "i mean, what would it look like to attempt to seriously acknowledge
fashion community and relationships without feeling we have to move back to
"core" or large systems with consistent (ie all the same folks) membership over
time. i guess i wonder if this is the thing that is in conflict with commerical

Archetypist says, "WHEW"

Archetypist says, "rats, now I have to scroll back about a hundred years to catch

Puff says, "Look, to begin with, when somebody starts talking about "virtual
rape" I know they're selling something (not necessarily financial)."

iona thinks is does happen but most of the time we (theorists/designers) overlook

iona grins at Archetypist.

Archetypist says to Puff, "I dunno.  I've seen some extremely devastating things
like that happen online"

Puff says, "Sexual harassment *might* come close to describing it."

iona says to Puff, "nah, i think it is an interesting piece. julian has a way of
catching some good info i think. it's just that whole event had more to it than
he realized at the time"

Archetypist says to Puff, "as psychologically devastating as online rape, I'd

colorMap says to iona, "shifting markets scare the hell out of corporate types
and so they will be resistant to understanding the benefits of community."

iona nods to colorMap.

iona says to colorMap, "yep, that's exactly part of my point"

Puff asks, "How many people do you know who've been raped in real life?  What's 
their* opinion on the topic?"

Archetypist says to colorMap, "no, I disagree -- businesses are acutely aware of
the value of community"

a large round ball hurtles toward you, uh oh its bedouin...kindly move aside as
she doesnt want to squish you with her rotund body

bedouin hugs all and waves!

iona says to Archetypist, "it is the shifting that is key in his sentence though"

Puff says, "There is certainly a sense of violation, but then again there's a
sense of violation in loss of privacy. There's a sense of violation in hearing
somebody's been talking about you behind your back."

iona hugs bedouin.

colorMap says to Archetypist, "I don't mean they are unaware of it - but that a
shifting (lossy) model of community is something they haven't yet grasped."

iona says to bedouin, "heyya :)"

Archetypist says to Puff, "I'm in no way trying to equate online "rape" with
physical rape (no, I am not going to say the word "faux" :) ) -- but
psychological devasting events do occur online"

keith gives bedouin a warm hug.

colorMap waves.

Puff asks, "If you're not trying to equate them, why use the same word?"

iona grins and notes that omitting faux is probably always best ;)

Puff asks, "Why not call sexual harassment sexual harassment?"

keith is out, dinner calls.

keith . o O ( idle on )

somms hugs bedouin.

bedouin attempts to determine the string here

Puff isn't even sure that "harassment" is correct, since it implies consistent,
repeated actions in a situation that is difficult for the victim to control.

Archetypist says to Puff, "I agree it muddies what should remain a strong term; I
used it only as a shorthand for others who have already used it"

iona grins at bedouin.

Archetypist says to bedouin, "good luck! I'm trying to do the same"

iona says to bedouin, "we'd read an article for the meeting, but we've drifted a
bit ;)"

Puff says, "Well, I'm referring to an article with the title "rape in

Archetypist says to Puff, "by that definition, harassment DEFINITELY occurs

Puff says, "Not to mention various associated debates and conversation."

iona notes that wasn't the article we read

Puff says, "Not necesarily, Arch."

Sisyphus says to Archetypist, "I'd say that businesses are acutely aware of the
value of community, but that doesn't mean they actually know what the community
means to them and what to do with it."

Puff asks, "Oh, Iona?"

Puff says, "That was the article in Wired, about the Mr. Bungle incident."

keith says to Sisyphus, "Amen."

iona says to Puff, "right, but we read a different on for this meeting ;)"

Archetypist says to Puff, "how do you mean, not necessarily?"

iona says, "on/one"

colorMap says to Archetypist, "Once I have caught up through the mailing list in
May, I'd be interesting in talking some more about your views.  About to go."

iona nods to Sisyphus.

Archetypist says to Sisyphus, "agreed"

Puff says, "Arch, by that definition most incidents are not harassment, since the
victimhas far more control than you might thing."

Puff says, "think."

Archetypist says to Sisyphus, "but every company knows the value of return
customers -- especially online"

iona says to Archetypist, "yeah, but is return customers the right model/vision
for this medium?"

Archetypist says to colorMap, "okay, I look forward to it (no one responded to my
musings on measurements of community)"

Archetypist says to iona, "I think so, at least from a commercial standpoint"

iona says to Archetypist, "don't feel bad, they ignore my pleas all the time ;)"

Archetypist says to Puff, "(I need to take a deep breath to respond -- just a

keith ignores all of your pleas.

keith grins.

iona says to Archetypist, "right, i know that is the traditional commercial
approach. but i find that online spaces often don't 'live' that way. the flow is
often shorter, transitory"

iona grins at keith.

Sisyphus says to Archetypist, "and few businesses seem to be able to make the
relationship between "community" and their customers."

Archetypist says to Sisyphus, "yeah, but wait for it.  That's definitely what
we're aiming at.  It just takes awhile to get there"

iona says, "basically, is a commercial venture possible if you take into account
a more dynamic model of community affiliation people are likely to assume online"

Sisyphus says, " i must be going soon too, just a heads-up. :)"

iona says, "and a more multiple affiliation"

iona smiles at Sisyphus.

colorMap says, "Unfortunatly, I need to scoot.  I have plans."

Archetypist says to Puff, "harassment definitely occurs online.  I had to deal
with this a great deal in M59.  People say 'hey you could leave' but that's seen
as just giving in to the harassers"

iona says to Sisyphus, "great you made it in. don't forget to check this one off
your list ;)"

Archetypist says to iona, "how do you mean, a more dynamic model?"

Puff says, "Yikes!  I just realized the time, gotta go ransom my car before they
lock the parking garage."

iona says to colorMap, "cool to see you too :) come back to visit - we're always

colorMap waves to all.

iona waves at colorMap.

iona waves at Puff.

colorMap has disconnected.

Puff says, "Arche, most environments provide mechanisms to give the victim a
large amount of control over their virtual environment."

Archetypist says, "see you later Puff, Colormap"

Archetypist says to Puff, "such as?"

Puff drats, "Why can't I have these kinds of conversations when I'm online?"

Puff says, "Start with @gag, @refuse, etc."

Archetypist says to Puff, "um, you are online :)"

somms . o O ( @gag is my favorite )

Puff says, "When I'm hanging out online, I mean.  I seem to only get into them
when I'm due to take off."

Archetypist says, "yes, @gag is useful.  But it doesn't stop someone from, say,
trashing your reputation or spreading lies about you"

somms says, "followed by @paranoid, but not to exclude @quit"

Puff asks, "Is that sexual harassment or is that libel?"

Sisyphus asks, " Would it be possible to continue some of this discussion on the

Puff says, "Or slander."

iona says to Archetypist, "basically, if you expect your customers to be playing
your game for the next three years you will probably be disappointed. seems the
way time and pacing goes online it might not fit with this long sustained ever
growing world picture. what would it mean to take natural large turnover

Archetypist says, "@quit is not an option"

iona says, "and not see it as pathological"

Archetypist says, "that is, it's just giving in -- not a solution"

somms says to Archetypist, "@quit is always an option."

Archetypist says to Sisyphus, "we can only hope :)"

iona nods to Sisyphus.

Sisyphus big grin

iona says to Sisyphus, "sure, just bring it up and hopefully folks will jump in

Puff says, "All somebody can do to you is emit messages at you, unless the online
environment provides you with access to some exclusive resource."

Sisyphus laughs out loud at herself

Archetypist says to iona, "ah, churn is always a concern.  AOL is built with this
in mind, for example."

Puff says, "The only resource in most cases is community membership."

somms says, "I mean, to take it to a real life model, if you walk into a strip
club, and see naked girls, and you don't like it, you leave, and hit the next

Puff says, "So now we step from issues of personal interaction into issues of
community standardds."

Puff says, "I have no problem with an online community defining standards of
interactionthat preclude explicit conversation."

somms says, "Or you could close your eyes."

Archetypist says to somms, "not quite an accurate analogy.  What if a bar full of
nekkid girls opens next door to your home, where you have invested a large amount
of yourself in the local community?  Should you just leave?  That's not a
solution for most people"

iona says to somms, "well, i'm not as crazy with the go play somewhere else if
you don't like it model. sometimes it matters what 'club' you are hanging out

Puff says, "Mind you, I'm highly unlikely to belong to such a community, but then
that's a choice *I* make."

Sisyphus says to Archetypist, "would you be willing to bring this up on the list?
I've been having trouble just following and getting used to my surroundings,
remembering everything well enough to quote would be an immense challenge."

iona chuckles that she and mike disagree with somms but for totally different

iona says, "ack, arch ;)"

Puff waves. "I'm going to idle for about 12-16 hours. (Or until snow kicks me off
in 1.5 hours :-)."

iona waves at Puff.

somms says to Archetypist, "good point."

Archetypist says to iona, "'sokay"

iona says to Archetypist, "it's such a long name it hasn't quite stuck in my
brain yet ;)"

Archetypist says to Sisyphus, "can't guarantee I'll bring this up -- you could
tho :)"

The housekeeper arrives to cart colorMap off to bed.

Puff says, "(Speaking of which, I wish SnowCrash didn't do that)."

somms would have to think about that one... but off the top of my head, there's
nothing in vr that limits you from building an extreamly high wall the completely
removes that strip club from your senses.

Puff idles and runs for the garage.

iona grins at somms.

Sisyphus says to Archetypist, "will try, i need to run now and am hoping i saved
the conversation correctly!!!"

iona says, "for me it's more a case of that i may want to be in that bar because
of the other people there. but even then, it seems the tech considerations (gag
and such) are enough, or could be"

Archetypist says, "not entirely somms -- no wall will keep out the people @grope
ing you as you walk by, who might be attracted to an online sex club, for

somms is logging the session, and assumes it will be posted at some point.

iona nods to somms.

iona says to somms, "once you send me the log ;)"

Sisyphus is feeling like a visitor in a new and *strange* land. :)

iona grins at Sisyphus.

somms says to Archetypist, "Can we be everything to everyone?"

Archetypist says to iona, "not in my experience... difficult to describe, but
there are always collateral effects"

iona says to Archetypist, "like?"

Archetypist says to somms, "not last I checked..."

somms notes that wasn't a retorical question.

iona thinks the more philosophically interesting point is that you can
essentially block out from your experience someone while others in the same space
are seeing a whole different social scene

Archetypist says to iona, "like slander.  or stopping you from entering a
building.  or ... maaaany other creative things that twisted minds _will_ come up
with.  Basically, we cannot depend on a technological solution (e.g. @gag) to
what is inherently a social problem"

Sisyphus says, " Well, all, I must be going. Thanks for the warm welcome and
assistance in finding my way around. See you on the list! Maybe I'll even get
around to introducing myself there one of these days ::big grin::"

Sisyphus waves

somms waves at Sisyphus.

iona says, "slander happens offline as well. what can you do. this is where a
community (and here i mean your smaller one) makes all the difference"

Archetypist says to iona, "that is, I've seen a lot of people try for such tech
solutions, and every single one of them has been foiled by creative "destroyer"
types online"

Archetypist waves.

iona thinks tech solutions are not relied on nearly enough yet to be jumping
ahead to social ones (or at least the social ones she always seems to hear about)

iona waves at Sisyphus.

Archetypist says to iona, "like what social ones?"

iona says to Archetypist, "i've seen good tech solutions overlooked in favor of
bad social ones"

somms finds a balance between tech, and tolerence, seems to do the trick from

somms says, "from/for"

iona says to Archetypist, "everything from requiring persistent identity to
banning for bad language"

Archetypist says to somms, "true -- consider, the police IRL are largely a "tech"

Sisyphus has disconnected.

somms nods to Archetypist.

iona says, "well, the *presence* of police are more a social solution than a tech

Archetypist says to iona, "well, banning bad language on the server side is just
begging for a lawsuit, as Prodigy found out a number of years ago..."

iona has been watching a huge tos (terms of service) fight brewing on wa worlds
for months now

Archetypist says to iona, "and I still believe in the need for persistent
identity -- in the cases where it's malleable and it works, that's only because
there is a deeper identity still known to all concerned"

Archetypist says, "eg a costume ball"

somms istituted a filtering system on another node that lets the user decided for
emself what sort of language would be allowed, and also allowed for parent to
institute the filter.  (only a sysadmin can disablie it once turned on)

iona says, "and that's one of the oldest graphical worlds around. but even at the
avatars conference two years ago (and this year) it is interesting to me how
quickly these rules and such are sought after for social fixes"

somms says, "disable"

Archetypist says to somms, "a very good solution.  Gives people the power (tech)
that they need, doesn't step on any legal or social toes either"

iona really disagrees about the persistence thing, but that's another huge
discussion ;)

iona says, "filters are notoriously problematic"

somms pokes iona, "mine works great :)"

iona grins at somms.

Archetypist says to iona, "TOS are necessarily imperfect and incomplete.  I don't
think they can encompass all of what you need to keep a socially even keel"

iona says to somms, "somehow i knew you'd say that ;)"

somms says to iona, "well, it does."

iona grins at somms.

Archetypist says to somms, "where did you get the list of words to filter out, or
does everyone roll their own?"

somms says to Archetypist, "To be honest, I created the word list."

iona says, "between creating tos and following 12 principles, designers sure have
their hands full"

iona winks

somms says to Archetypist, "we also take submissions on words to be added. 
Eventually, I'll incorp user defnined unique word lists."

Archetypist says to somms, "then how do you know it's "necessary and sufficient"
-- that you haven't left out some hideous profanity that will cause someone to
drop dead when they hear it?"

Archetypist says to somms, "I see"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Sisyphus off to bed.

Archetypist says to iona, "I think TOS are really just statements of what we can
do if we want -- a contract between the company and the individual.  How the TOS
gets enacted is more problematic"

iona nods to Archetypist.

somms says to Archetypist, "It's not the end all solution, but combined with the
tons of other tech filters (@gag, @paranoid, home, @quit, etc) and tolorence, it
works very well."

Archetypist says, "that is, the TOS might say "we can boot you for X" but then
how we react to X is a bit murkier"

Dorcas is here. Rejoice.

iona hugs Dorcas.

somms hugs Dorcas.

Dorcas waves.

iona says to Dorcas, "heyya :)"

Archetypist says to you, "I'm still unclear on @paranoid "

somms says to Archetypist, "it's a tracer on who emited what.  An anti-spoof
measure that works very well.  (due to object oriented programming base)"

Archetypist says to iona, "so, while I was on the phone, was there an entirely
cathartic and illuminating discussion of Amy's article?"

iona chuckles and shakes her head. "nah, just the usual mud multi-thread rambling
i think ;)"

Dorcas has reconnected.

Dorcas sighs

iona is sorry more folks didn't turn up

Archetypist says to somms, "and I'm assuming you can't spoof the output of
@paranoid? :)"

somms says to Archetypist, "an example would be, check @paranoid to see who's
spewing media you don't want, and then @gag them."

iona says to Dorcas, "bummer, that's still happening?"

somms says to Archetypist, "nope."

Dorcas says to iona, "yeah....I may have to yell at MA bell, or just break down
and do the isdn thingy"

Archetypist thinks these discussions are always fascinating and exhausting

iona chants break down break down

iona grins

Archetypist chants cable modem cable modem

bedouin teleports out.

iona grins at Archetypist.

Dorcas says to iona, "you and the rest of the world, but who's gonna"

iona grins at Dorcas.

somms says to Archetypist, "to get a bit technical, every command is pre-defined
with a set of varibles, one of which is 'caller', caller is whoever entered in
the command from the command line."

Archetypist says to somms, "ah, of course.  Yes, that makes lots of sense"

iona says to Archetypist, "yep, they are always good, but then you see how
quickly dinner time approaches ;)"

somms says to Archetypist, "this has nothing to do with the user interface, but
in the root of the entire system."

somms says to iona, "or in my case, next class time.  :("

iona nods and smiles

iona says to somms, "you'll be back later though?"

Archetypist says to iona, "yeah... believe it or not, I have to prepare for Scout

iona grins at Archetypist.

Archetypist says, "no, I'm the scoutmaster :)"

iona says to Archetypist, "really? wow"

iona chuckles

Dorcas always wanted a boy scout

Dorcas errrs, to be one...

somms says to iona, "round 9 o'clock CST"

Archetypist says to Dorcas, "I was wondering..."

iona grins at Dorcas.

iona nods to somms.

Dorcas blushes

Archetypist says, "i'll be gone all next week -- no email or nuthin..."

Archetypist says, "hope I don't get the shakes for being offline for so long"

iona grins at Archetypist.

Dorcas's bad, she can tell you that...bad bad bad.

Archetypist says, "and believe it or not, it's a very good community :)"

iona says to Archetypist, "so where ya going camping?"

iona assumed it was camping

Archetypist says to iona, "a camp up near Chico, in the Sierras, near Lassen
National Park"

somms says, "chico!"

somms used to camp in the sierras, near fresno.

iona smiles

iona says, "cool"

Archetypist says, "should be fun.  I keep telling myself that."

somms says, "nothing like being 30 miles from the nearest person on earth."

iona chuckles, "isn't there a prison in chico?"

iona grins at Archetypist.

somms says to iona, "yeah, vacaville ;)"

iona grins

Archetypist says, "yeah, last year we did a 50 mile/6 day hike through the
backwoods of Yosemite.  It was spectacular"

iona says, "i think my uncle worked at that one for a period of time"

Dorcas has been to vacaville

iona says, "yosemite is great. sounds like it will be fun :)"

somms lived in vacaville.

Archetypist has decided not to get off the freeway in vacaville

iona grins

somms grins at Archetypist.

Archetypist says to iona, "this was fun.  we need to do it again.  Okay, maybe
I'll post some more stuff for people to eviscerate in one of these sessions :)"

somms says, "charles mason is held a few months out of the year at vacaville...
they rotate him."

Archetypist says to somms, "you mean like, counterclockwise?"

Dorcas looks up at the dome and whistles

iona nods and smiles, "yeah, cool. post away :)"

iona hopes to have more folks next time

Dorcas hopes to be wired at work by next time

somms says to Archetypist, "apparently he was learning the routine and was
manipulating the guards.  They rotate him now to keep him from getting too close
to anyone."

Archetypist says, "oh btw, I have come across a few interesting sources.  M.
Scott Peck has a couple of good books, and then there's Victor Turner's work"

Archetypist says, "sources on community formation I mean"

iona chuckles and totally missed whatever thread somms is talking about now

somms says, "vacaville, san quention, and whatever other prisons are in the

iona says to Archetypist, "cool. maybe send them to the list for folks"

iona nods and smiles, "ah"

Dorcas says, "I wanna go camp at Alcatraz"

Archetypist says to iona, "somms says they spin Marilyn Manson around in circles,
or something like that :)"

somms says to iona, "you aren't missing anything ;)"

somms says, "charles manson."

iona grins at somms.

Dorcas likes Marilyn Manson

iona chuckles, "ah"

Dorcas doesn't like Charles Manson

Archetypist says to somms, "charles, marilyn -- no identity is persistent after

somms smiles.

iona grins, "ah dear, okay, i think it's time for me to see about getting food"

iona grins at Archetypist.

Archetypist says to you, "agreed.  see you all later"

Dorcas waves

Archetypist has disconnected.

somms says, "see ya :)"

somms waves to all leaving.

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