In attendance (by order of appearance):
iona: T.L. Taylor
DrJanet: Janet LeValley
Nina: Nina Wakeford
Edith: Lelah Conrad
debc: Deb Cowden
Henri: Henrich Schwarz
Bruce: Bruce Damer
Phillip: Phillip Jeffrey
NONODEADKITTY!: Alexa Arlen
Wendy: Wendy Sue Noah
A note on editing:
This transcript was compiled with the help of Bruce Damer. There is a bit of a difficulty in WA in that one must keep saving
messages as there is no on/off trigger for logging. I think we have a complete log here, but let me know if you notice any
omissions or problems with it. I have also decided to leave the log as is, not correcting misspellings or taking out any emotive
notations. Finally, several people did not have time to rename themselves from the generic names the system provides (i.e. Avatar 2153) so I have gone ahead and substituted their first name for easier reading. ---- T.L.Taylor
[Small talk and the usual chair issues (g) have not been included in this transcript. It begins with the official opening of the meeting...]
iona: okay, let's start! (grin) DrJanet: okay Nina: Intros! iona: we are having an informal get together after, so we can chat more then iona: (grin) DrJanet: Phil, are you okay? Nina: Jerry = dissertation mania DrJanet: I remember that disorder. DrJanet: LOL iona: can one other person help me by keeping a second transcrip? Nina: Me too, urggh DrJanet: I will keep a transcript. iona: thanks(grin) Nina: I'm taking photos iona: okay, let's do intros (grin) DrJanet: Great iona: thanks nina (grin)(bow) iona: also, i think a good convention... iona: is when you haven't finished your thought... DrJanet: Can you send me 1 photo DrJanet: later, please? iona: to use elipses to signal you are continuing (grin) Nina: will pass whole album to iona DrJanet: What is an ellipse? iona: last time we got multi-threaded a bit much (grin) Nina: to post/distribute iona: sounds good nina Edith: ... iona: ... janet (grin) DrJanet: (grin)(grin) Edith: ellipses=... iona: okay, how about we start over in the corner with edit? (grin) iona: edith, even (grin)(bow) Edith: Kay! Edith: I'm Lelah Conrad, former academic libn... Edith: now reading teacher... Edith: internet explorer... Edith: and happily involved now as guide on a WA world... Edith: nice to meet you all, and am very interested in topic! iona: (grin) DrJanet: Welcome iona: deb, you want to go next? debc: sure... debc: I'm deb cowden, job hunter, journalist, former accountant.... debc: jill of all trades. Glad to be here! iona: (grin) DrJanet: Welcome iona: (pokes bruce)(grin) Henri: hi all iona: heyya (grin)(bow) DrJanet: Henri, DrJanet: welcome and have a seat. iona: perfect timing, we just started (grin) Edith: Hi Henri! Henri: sorry had car trouble DrJanet: Cool look! (grin) Bruce: hi all iona: np Bruce: sorry, should I introduce myself? Phillip: hi henri iona: please do (grin)(bow) Bruce: I am bruce damer, inhabitant of these worlds for some 3 years.. Bruce: cofounded Contact Consortium as a forum for the development of this medium.. Bruce: hosted several conferences on subject so far.. Bruce: wrote a book called avatars.. Bruce: suppose you could say I have gone native :) :) iona: (bg) Bruce: thats all folks! iona: great to have you with us bruce (grin) Edith: (bow) Bruce: thanks for forming this SIG! DrJanet: Welcome, Bruce iona: bruce has been the guy to give us our listserv and webspace (grin)(bow) DrJanet: Thank you, Bruce! Bruce: you are the 5th SIG Of the Consortium, you are very welcome.. Henri: hi bruce Bruce: you make the org what it is! iona: (grin) Bruce: We are a true virtual org :) Henri: I figure I am next ? .. Bruce: Just has another big SIG meeting in-world DrJanet: Yep iona: yep (grin) Bruce: Please see www.ccon.org Bruce: sorry! iona: s'ok (grin) DrJanet: (grin) Henri: I am Heinrich Schwarz ... Henri: anthropologist of technology at MIT .. Henri: mostly interested in virtual environments for collaborative purposes... Henri: but not only .. Henri: glad to be here. iona: (grin) Edith: (wave) Henri: (grin) Nina: Hi Henri, my turn? iona: (nods)(grin) Nina: Ok, I'm Nina Wakeford, usually on the faculty Nina: of Sociology, University of Sheffield, UK Nina: ...oops... iona: (g) Nina: now at UC Berkeley until Sept... Nina: as visiting prof... Nina: doing research and writing on cultural aspects of technology... Nina: and trying to keep graduate students... Nina: writing about it too, eh iona?.. iona: (g) DrJanet: (g) Nina: Very glad to be at second meeting. The end iona: (grin) Henri: (wave) iona: well, i am t.l.taylor... iona: graduate student in sociology at brandeis university... iona: writing my dissertation on embodiment in virtual worlds.. iona: and spending more time at the keyboard than anywhere else these days (g) (shrug) DrJanet: Sounds familiar iona: glad to have you all here (grin)(bow) DrJanet: (wry grin) iona: (g) DrJanet: Phillip??? DrJanet: Are you going to hold that chair all day???? Phillip: Am I next? iona: oh, (chuckles) i thought you were going next janet (grin) DrJanet: Oh sorry iona: (g) DrJanet: I was busy worrying about DrJanet: Phillip. Phillip: Hi my name is Phillip iona: (lol) Phillip: My avatar refuses to cooperate so I will stand :) iona: (g) DrJanet: Phillip, DrJanet: give me the chair. Phillip: I am a undergraduate student here at the GMD.FIT.CSCW in Sankt Augustin, Germany DrJanet: Maybe I can help. Phillip: My research lies in investigating social norms and conventions that may exist in virtual environments Phillip: such as virtual worlds DrJanet: Phillip, you may be interested in my paper, Doing it in Cyberspace DrJanet: I talked a lot about the DrJanet: culture of our world, DrJanet: norms and holidays and DrJanet: etiquette, etc. Phillip: I am a student intern here at the German National Research Center for Information Technology iona: (grin) iona: k, nono? NONODEADKITTY!: oh sorry (grin) NONODEADKITTY!: hehe NONODEADKITTY!: Alexa Arlen, pion (relax)(jump) interested in anthropology/psychology/sociology of life in virtual worlds [among other things (veg)] and contact consortium member (grin)(grin) Phillip: I would be interested in the paper thanks. NONODEADKITTY!: [done] Phillip: CSCW-Computer Supported Cooperative Work iona: w/b edith (grin) Edith: (sorry!) iona: and finally, janet, our author (grin)(bow) DrJanet: WElcome Henri: it seems we need more chairs DrJanet: Yes and DrJanet: Philip, if you will give me your chair, DrJanet: I will help you Wendy: Thank You iona: hello there (grin)(bow) we are doing intros right now DrJanet: There. (grin) DrJanet: I am Janet DrJanet: I am a world manager DrJanet: for both WorldsAway Dreamscape DrJanet: and also WorldsAway Club Connect. DrJanet: I have been cultural director for Fujitsu WA worlds for 2 and a half years DrJanet: My doctorate is in East West Psychology and DrJanet: I am professionally active in Anthropology and Cyber conferences. DrJanet: I am also in charge of the DrJanet: MA and PhD degree programs in DrJanet: Computer Mediated Consciousness at Greenwich DrJanet: University, a distance education university, DrJanet: department of Consciousness Studies. DrJanet: I started a non-accredited distance education DrJanet: program in WA Dreamscape, DrJanet: Kymer International University. DrJanet: WE have three departments, two of which are grass roots projects. DrJanet: And I am very happy to have this privilege of DrJanet: meeting togwether with all of you here. DrJanet: Thank you for coming and participating. DrJanet: (bow) Henri: (bow) iona: thank you janet (grin)(bow) and it looks like we have one more person? iona: who is our mystery guest here? (g) Wendy: Is that me? iona: yep (grin) DrJanet: (grin)(grin) Wendy: Hello Janet and gang - it is a pleasure to be here Wendy: My name is Wendy Sue Noah and I am the World Manager for a new upcoming WorldsAway world... Wendy: Club Connect! DrJanet: LOL Edith: Hi Wendy!(grin) iona: ah, welcome wendy (grin)(bow) DrJanet: My illustrious colleague at CC iona: (g) Bruce: welcome wendy, a true pioneer in this medium! Wendy: Oh, I guess I'm not such a mystery guest, after all! Phillip: hi wendy Bruce: founder of the WEAVE SIG, Women Entering Avatar Virtual Environments Henri: incognito today? Wendy: Thank you to Bruce Damer for inviting me iona: well, whew, welcome all, good to see a nice turnout (grin)(bow) DrJanet: Yes, though we had a bit of trouble with the chairs. iona: our reading today as you all know was janet's paper on alternate embodiemnt iona: (g) i think we will always have chair issues (grin) Nina: can we start with questions? iona: i thought i'd just open the floor for comments iona: yep, sounds good (grin) DrJanet: Good comments can be spoken Nina: Janet, I was interested in your phrase... DrJanet: and bad ones need only to be thought. (grin)(grin) iona: (g) Nina: multiplicity of body = multiplicity of self DrJanet: yes Nina: hasn't there been a lot of research to suggest Nina: that multiple selves can exist without multiple bodies? Nina: or am I misunderstanding? DrJanet: Yes of course there has been such research and DrJanet: I agree with it. DrJanet: However, DrJanet: what I meant to state was that DrJanet: in externalizing our multiple selves DrJanet: into actual bodies (pizel in this case) DrJanet: we free each of our selves Nina: Ah, I see. DrJanet: to act on the environment and differentiate DrJanet: and develop further, DrJanet: not altogether as separate entities, but certainly more so, DrJanet: in my understnding, Henri: Now, I am getting confused, Janet .. DrJanet: than is achieved when the selves are fighting for control DrJanet: (g) DrJanet: of one body. DrJanet: Confused? DrJanet: Elaborate? Henri: Do you mean to say that it is pre-existing selves that get embodied? Henri: rather than what I thought you meant .. DrJanet: I think it is Henri: that in each different embodiment .. DrJanet: pre-existing selves that are not Henri: we would develop new selves DrJanet: fully differentiated, but only partly differentiated, DrJanet: that we project into the DrJanet: in a virtual world, DrJanet: that then have the opportunity to DrJanet: develop more fully, DrJanet: to construct their own DrJanet: body-based experience DrJanet: separately from the DrJanet: ratava body to some extent DrJanet: (though obviously still affiliated). iona: this strikes me as akin to turkle's ideas about DrJanet: These iona: working out or through to some degree DrJanet: more fully differentiated selves DrJanet: act on the environment and become more than the DrJanet: original ratava DrJanet: selves DrJanet: projection that gave them birth. DrJanet: Then, through multiple DrJanet: selves dialoguing, debc: But what is the rebound effect on the ratava? DrJanet: we are able to integrate our selves more fully. iona: (good question deb (nods)) Henri: thanks DrJanet: I cll that rebound effect seepage. DrJanet: And I am interested in it because this DrJanet: is how I believe debc: Couldn't it be used to deliberately change one's self? DrJanet: personal growth can happen with the ' DrJanet: virtual development as a tool. DrJanet: Absolutely. Nina: What are the differences in 3D/text worlds in this? (Less of a pixel body in MUDs? Different personal Nina: growth?) Nina: Question for everyone really DrJanet: That is a good question and DrJanet: I have only a bit to say on this. DrJanet: I have some experience in one MUD DrJanet: so I do not have enough DrJanet: to comment on, academically, DrJanet: but from my research data, DrJanet: it appears tht people do not come in here DrJanet: to intentionally change their lives. DrJanet: It just happens. DrJanet: And part of the key to this seems to be the DrJanet: necessity of watching one's self DrJanet: (in all its multiplicity) Henri: Psychoanalysts would say they may come in DrJanet: onscreen and being able to analyze it. Henri: to change even if they don't know consciously DrJanet: They do come in, from that perspective. DrJanet: Yes. DrJanet: But they are not aware of it usually. iona: that is a provocative statement janet.. DrJanet: Not until later. iona: that the ability to gaze at yourself.. iona: is what is crucial in this process... iona: though here then muds are not the counter.. DrJanet: It is something tht is raised iona: but first person worlds DrJanet: in so many interviews I have done in Dreamscape. Nina: Good point iona. DrJanet: Yes. iona: though i have found people... DrJanet: I do not mean to imply that MUDS do not give one the bility to gaze at oneself, though. iona: how feel the third person perspective.. DrJanet: To some extent, they do, to imaginative participnts. iona: lends a sense of puppetness, though they often don't see this in muds... iona: i'm personally finding it very hard to come up with... NONODEADKITTY!: takes more effort though in a MUD or first person perspective world I think iona: a structured understanding of this. NONODEADKITTY!: to see yourself Nina: Puppetness and sense of pixel body... Nina: I'm wondering... Nina: if anything is lost.. debc: There can be a freedom in a third person perspective. Nina: experientially or analytically... DrJanet: To really answer this well, Bruce: first person perspective can yield more social immersion DrJanet: I think we would need to DrJanet: (gulp) Nina: by placing the pixel body as an 'actual' body... iona: i'm interested in those two comments that went by... iona: on the difficulty in muds... Bruce: immersion in place, committment to the dialogue DrJanet: set up a more quantitative experiement, with controls. iona: and the freedom question... iona: (lol) nina! Nina: what is committment/responsibility to the pixel body if all is multiplicity (and often play)? iona: oh, that was janet who said that (g)(shrug) DrJanet: Because all experience is body-based and DrJanet: having a pixel body still DrJanet: lends a different DrJanet: body to the selves equation. iona: i was actually a bit confused at times in your paper janet... iona: as sometimes you seemed to be putting what i would term identity plays... iona: in with embodiment (ie plastic surgery vs putting on a cape) iona: i wonder how you seperate the two? iona: (granted their connection is quite complicated) DrJanet: I would separate them only around the issue of DrJanet: how intent is involved. DrJanet: Even in an avatar world iona: hmm, not sure i get that DrJanet: with avatar bodies, DrJanet: there are those who experience the avatar self as a cape DrJanet: so to speak. DrJanet: They put it on and roleplay, DrJanet: a cynical enactment. DrJanet: Sometimes they fall for their role and DrJanet: other times they do not. iona: hmm, okay. i will have to think on that a bit Henri: According to what you said before .. DrJanet: Well, me too (grin)(grin) iona: i wonder, i think it was both deb and edith had a comment about muds? iona: (g) Henri: no matter how cynical the role .. Nina: But what about the concept of audience reception? debc: well, naturally I would prefer text.... NONODEADKITTY!: I had a comment about muds, but I forget what it was (grin) iona: (g) Nina: I mean you might try to 'be' a woman, but no-one 'gets' it? iona: prefer text because? Bruce: you might try the voice experience in Onlive Traveler (anyone done it?) iona: (lol) happens often enough nina (g) debc: I am able to move more and do more with text. iona: (nods) yeah, reed riner was here last time... DrJanet: Yes, I have heard others say that Edith: the people on my mud think so too debc: I tried Onlive...it was...different. iona: and commented on how dead and frozen we all seemed compared to a mud Nina: So bodies are more mobile in text? DrJanet: and perhaps it depends on familiarity but more likely it depends on Henri: (tell us, Bruce debc: Much more mobile! DrJanet: how different strokes work for different folks. DrJanet: (grin) Nina: I like the blinking in OnLive Edith: they think you can never reveal as much in graphics as in text Nina: I tried to get the faculty here to take it seriously iona: it is a fascinating question, how people fall on this Nina: for French conversation class Phillip: I have briefly used Onlive also but I actually prefer not using my voice iona: when reed and i went to his mud after our last meeting... Bruce: Voice can be a real bandwidth hog but it is a very socially immersive experience.. iona: i have to say, i felt as if i'd been released from a strightjacket a bit (shrug) Bruce: but it is difficult to record the sessions! DrJanet: Hmmmm debc: Voice with headphones really rocks. iona: (we have an invitation there after btw) Nina: I wonder if all cultures find increasing voice = increasing social immersion. DrJanet: I have never tried it but that would be interesting. iona: but what is embodiment via voice? Nina: I wonder what deaf communities would find most socially immersive? iona: in a mud, i can type iona hugs you, in online, i would say that?? iona: i can enact on a mud, even in here debc: :when YOUR vice is coming out of a pixel body...it is more YOU. DrJanet: Certainly. Bruce: In south africa, we used Traveler where kids could not read.. iona: remember, it is quite interesting that diapaulo (who did online)... debc: whoops, voice...bad slip. iona: made a strategic decision to leave off the bodies Bruce: Steve dipaola has a very interesting short treatise as part of our siggraph 97 panel.. iona: yes, maybe like phone sex you mean? Bruce: if anyone is interested? iona: yeah, that was a fascinating talk he gave bruce debc: Hrm, I use my body in phone sex. Nina: Steve D recommended companies took socio/anths seriously iona: he has a great term called coupling the pair Nina: I like him. iona: (nods) yeah, phone sex is a great example of complicating the voice question Bruce: Steve is a visionay, a great character designer and writer on the subject of immersion.. Bruce: in worlds, trade-offs with voice, POV etc. Nina: Being devil's advocate here... debc: I don't like my head floating around without my body. iona: maybe we can get him in here for a reading session (g) iona: i can't quite tell who said that, was it phillip or deb? DrJanet: It seems to me that Bruce: Just spoke with him yesterday, he will help out with Avatars98, especially if it is in-world! DrJanet: voice would maybe benefit a world Nina: Immersion seems to depend on resources (skill, money, time, pixels, bandwidth), no? DrJanet: which is intended to DrJanet: extend the waking world, DrJanet: but not a world like Dreamscape which is a Bruce: Objects and property are very important to immersion, look at Active Worlds.. DrJanet: world apart from waking world. debc: Voice also puts up barriers...accent and such. iona: agreed bruce DrJanet: yes Nina: Pixel bodies can also 'work out' to be more socially desirable as they become richer... Bruce: where people become attached to their locations, as people do here to their Turfs. iona: well janet, we both know how mushy that line is (g) Nina: but does this change transformative potential? Phillip: I also agree iona: if anything wa has more f2f meetings than most places (lol) iona: hmm, what do you mean socially desirable? Edith: lol iona Nina: Well look at us 'clones' here compared to the 'worked out' bodies... iona: i would say it's not just attachment bruce, but objects lend a materiality to the space.. iona: and materiality is useful for embodiment Nina: I sense cultural capital in more complication (further from the default/norm). iona: this is why i'd distinguish chat rooms from worlds Edith: yes Nina: What is the materiality of a pixel body? iona: oh yes, the cultural capital part is key DrJanet: The pixel body is just as material as the DrJanet: ratava body in waking world. iona: (chuckles) well, i could give ya my 4 theoretical points, but i won't bore ya (g) DrJanet: LOL Nina: But the ratava body is being de-materialised in the cultural arena (ads would have us believe)... Bruce: yes, cultural capital, sense of space, belonging, stuff, competitive nature of owning.. Nina: What is happening here? iona: but i think the autonomy of objects and others is key in creatign embodiment Bruce: the coolest objects or space, pride, greed, all the human motivations lend.. Bruce: a committment to being int he space and therefore embodiment. iona: de-materialized? how so? DrJanet: We are being re-materialized here, I guess. Bruce: (opinion of a rank amateur!) DrJanet: That is a very fscinating point. DrJanet: (bow) Nina: I mean that the ads have picked up on being postmodern... iona: (grins at bruce) Nina: fragemented, the peformative... Nina: and regurgitate it back to us... debc: BUT, we are being materialized guided (again) by the imaginings of a few. Nina: maybe just in CA? iona: (lol) Edith: heh debc: err, rematerialized. DrJanet: yes DrJanet: OL Nina: So we are supposed to be able to avoid our.. iona: yeah, i take a dematerialized position pretty skeptically Nina: material bodies in 'real' (ratava) life iona: at least, it's not what i find in my interviews (shrug) Nina: More please iona. DrJanet: Clarification? DrJanet: You take the iona: heck, what in the world are people doing when they have sex online (lol) DrJanet: idea of our DrJanet: being dematerialized skeptically? iona: yeah, i don't think most people walk around in their day to day life... iona: feeling disembodied (shrug) DrJanet: My ratava is far more iona: it is actually quite hard to be so i would say DrJanet: disembodied than DrJanet: are my avatars. iona: how so? Nina: I get more backache being an avatar than in the rest of my life. DrJanet: I am at the computer about 17 hours each day,. Edith: hee iona: (g) DrJanet: I often do not take time to DrJanet: do any of the things that would DrJanet: bring my body into my attention. Nina: But I feel more material in other senses in 'everyday' life. DrJanet: Yet my avatar bodies receive attention from me. DrJanet: I live in them. iona: yeah, but i'm not sure that is the norm though it depends on the space debc: My body tends to demand attention...which avatars cannot do. DrJanet: For me it is like this and for Nina: What about cross-culturally? DrJanet: many others I have spoken with. Nina: Tamogachi demand attention... iona: i mean 17 hours Nina: feeding electronic pets... Nina: you know. iona: i find lots of people trying to negotiate having two bodies at once.. DrJanet: 17 hours is not a record Bruce: Is it Minsky's Society of Mind extenting out into a swarm of digital prosthetics? DrJanet: even among our customers. Nina: eh, Bruce? iona: and coming up with interesting ways to move through the shifts back and forth Edith: hmmm... Edith: but doesn't sound healthy to me debc: Why stop at two? Multi-moo! iona: prosthetics is a fascinating word bruce iona: (chuckles) yep deb, definitely! Nina: Sandy Stone talks about prosthetics too. DrJanet: I have more than two, of course, Henri: nice rhyme, phillip DrJanet: but it is difficult to be real in too many. iona: i find again a mix of people who use that term Nina: What is the norm for those users who only spend say 30 mins a day on this? Bruce: Yes, are we creating societies of exo-mind, where mind prostheses call our attention.. DrJanet: I do not know. Nina: Is materiality function of time spent online? iona: versus seeing their av as separate in some way from themselves DrJanet: Most people spend more than 30 minutes iona: (though ultimately they are often quite ambivalent) Phillip: that comment was't phillip Bruce: as our stomachs, sex drives, need for tribal assurance, all do in the in-body society? iona: interesting question nina Nina: Janet, you mean most users of WA? Henri: sorry, deb, then iona: (g) deb and phillip have a blurred boundary over there Edith: i think there is a difference... Edith: between people who think they live here... DrJanet: most DS users. Edith: and people who are looking for communication/contact. DrJanet: Yes, that is true. iona: ah, interesting distinction edith Edith: i for one... Edith: have been, as you know, lloking.. iona: though the live here folks tend to be drawn to the comm as well debc: Hold on...people believe they live here? Edith: for good conversation... Edith: but not for a life in virtual reality! NONODEADKITTY!: I know people who live in hotel DrJanet: I live in Dreamscape. iona: (g) deb. well, dontcha live on a mud? DrJanet: And I have interviewed many avatars whose DrJanet: ratavas connect charges are in excess of DrJanet: 1000 dollars per month. Edith: yikes! debc: Hrm, usually I have a place where I store myself, thought sometimes I am a street person. DrJanet: I have spoken with many who have spent 2 days and some three days iona: i guess i wonder janet why on this you seem to want to lend _more_ embodiment to the av.. Edith: get a life is taking on a new meaning, heh Henri: 1000 dollars? DrJanet: inworld without leaving. DrJanet: yes Edith: sounds like addiction to me iona: versus a shared amoutn. is it part of nina's earlier point, about the moment we live in? debc: I don't consider that living though. DrJanet: It is not addiction Phillip: when one's virtual life begins to adversely affect one's physical life DrJanet: That is very simplistic. DrJanet: The same could be said then of DrJanet: waking world life, Phillip: is that the signs of an addiction? DrJanet: that it is an addiction, DrJanet: that breathing is an addiction. DrJanet: It is not unhealthy across the board to Edith: well, you have to breathe... DrJanet: spend days in here or Bruce: Avaddiction, all things in moderation as the (ancient) Greeks used to say.. NONODEADKITTY!: but virtual living is more of a choice Nina: Do we want to reserve some priviledges for biosocial eg breathing? iona: yeah, the addiction model never strikes me as entirely satisfying DrJanet: even nearly all of one's life in here. DrJanet: I have friends in Dreamscape, Nina: Or let it go completely, as I think Janet has (?) DrJanet: for example, who NONODEADKITTY!: and I think if ya choose virtual over real then you're addicted NONODEADKITTY!: but what do I know DrJanet: are terminally ill, who are Quads, ' DrJanet: who have serious burns, etc, Bruce: Like teens on phones all day? DrJanet: who have a full and very very healthy DrJanet: sense of themselves inworld, but who Bruce: Vicarious remote living. DrJanet: for quite obvious reasons DrJanet: do not prefer the DrJanet: severe DrJanet: dependency of waking world. debc: what is RL but a lonely hallucination? DrJanet: This is not that unusual as you might think. iona: (lol) DrJanet: Exactly. Edith: hmmmm DrJanet: You can decide that DrJanet: for you personally, DrJanet: the waking world is more iona: skeptic in the corner over there? (grins at edith) DrJanet: healthy, Edith: yup DrJanet: but you cnnot decide this for others iona: DrJanet: because it is not true,\ DrJanet: I for example have Edith: but of course we do decide for others all the time... DrJanet: many serious allergies Edith: some of us are teachers...etc DrJanet: life threatening reactions iona: i guess i am just not finding people in such polemical positions Henri: lol DrJanet: to the waking world. DrJanet: For me, I have a great deal more freedom in iona: all inworld or all offline. mix of both which is hard to sort out usually DrJanet: the virtual world. DrJanet: That is true for many many people here. debc: So, VR becomes an equlizer of all things physical? iona: this is one thing that concerned me about your paper janet... debc: gotta get a new typist, equalizer. iona: i have to confess, your ww examples could be read in a devastating fashion DrJanet: How so?? iona: well, they seemed to be examples of fairly impoverished ww lives, environs, etc.... iona: and i think it fits all too easy with an escapist stereotype DrJanet: Not everyone has an impoverished waking world life, DrJanet: but there are many many for whom DS is a richer experience and DrJanet: affords more opportunity. DrJanet: It is not at all about escape. DrJanet: It is about choice. DrJanet: Choice for enriched living. iona: hmm, i think we have to be careful about these terms.. DrJanet: In what way? iona: richer or more. again, this move to priveldge it this way.. Henri: never heard you so sceptic, taylor Edith: when i think of enriched living.. Edith: i think of a balance of some sort. iona: strikes me as overlooking the more more mundane, yet interesting moves people make DrJanet: That is based on your choices and iona: (grins at henri) she brings it out in me (grin) DrJanet: what you have to work with. DrJanet: Obviously, DrJanet: not everyone has the same bag of options. debc: Why put value judgements on at all? iona: (just noticed nina crashed) DrJanet: I put value judgements on because the DrJanet: people I have interviewed do so and I am a researcher. DrJanet: I try to report. DrJanet: Not find politically correct data. DrJanet: (g) iona: (chuckles) we will have to have a comparison session when my stuff is written up janet (g) Bruce: just stretching, sorry! iona: (grins at bruce) Edith: (grin) Henri: I'd like to come back to the question we had earlier DrJanet: (grin)(grin) Henri: on the importance of self-observation iona: i think we find many of the same things, but nuance them a bit differently iona: yeah, let's henri Henri: I found that the most Henri: interesting point in Janet's paper Henri: How exactly does the self-observation Henri: and analysis happen? Henri: is it the back and forth Henri: between the different selves/roles Henri: or whatever you want to call it? Henri: It does seem that this points does implicitly Henri: priviledge the waking world somewaht Henri: 'NO? DrJanet: How so? Henri: (sorry didn't meant to shoult iona: (g) DrJanet: (g) iona: good point henri Henri: you talked about a dialogue between avatar iona: i've noticed that too, always implicitly though Henri: experience and ravata thinkin Henri: that goes on when we watch DrJanet: Yes, I went into this DrJanet: a good deal in a previous paper. iona: noticed it in this paper i mean Henri: isn't it always the ravata self then iona: the locus of the birth as you call it is always ratava Henri: that does the observation / analysis? Henri: right. DrJanet: That is a good question, DrJanet: especially since the ratava is DrJanet: comprised of many selves, Henri: good point DrJanet: though perhaps not so exlicitly manifested as those in iona: this is the thread i link to turkle DrJanet: avatar embodiment. DrJanet: But at some level it is DrJanet: difficult to say with certainty who is DrJanet: doing the observation because iona: seems to me then, that despite your term of polycentric is much more centrally structured DrJanet: for exmple, DrJanet: my avatars, iona: than might appear at first glance DrJanet: Oracle Uni and my alters DrJanet: certainly have re-integrated DrJanet: (in more developed capacity) DrJanet: back into the collectivity that is my iona: ah, so fascinating, that the avatar could see with ratava eyes DrJanet: ratava self(ves) and debc: Ravata is creator...but do avatars become differentiated from ravata? DrJanet: so how does one distinguish? DrJanet: Avatars do become differentiated but they are also constantly iona: depends on the world and form of embodiment i think DrJanet: re-integrating. iona: yes, true iona: in degrees though (shrug) NONODEADKITTY!: some of my avatars take on a life of their own sometimes (relax) iona: right debc: but your avatar would cease to exist if you so chose...ultimately you are ravata. NONODEADKITTY!: yeah DrJanet: Your ratava cn also Edith: yes DrJanet: cease to exist if you choose, NONODEADKITTY!: but sometimes they do stuff that I don't expect , it's weird DrJanet: so you are not ratava at thebase of your reality. NONODEADKITTY!: catches me off guard sometimes (react) Henri: what for example iona: yeah, that is a fascinating thing phillip NONODEADKITTY!: they say stuff that I would normally censor (shrug) DrJanet: Yes iona: or act DrJanet: mmmhmm iona: or even move (g) debc: for sure on the act. iona: (g) iona: i will plug an article nono wrote on this exact topic (grin) NONODEADKITTY!: hehe DrJanet: (g) Phillip: like my avatar now (won't do what I say and sit down) iona: speak kitty! NONODEADKITTY!: kitty don't wanna speak (relax) iona: (lol) phillip iona: oh, okay (grin) well, the gist of it was about how avatars can take on lives of their own.. DrJanet: Kitty prefers to meaow (grin) iona: and develop in unexpected ways, in relation to social interaction (something i as Edith: i've heard writers say this.. iona: a sociologist think is key (grin)) Edith: about characters they've created. iona: yeah edith? NONODEADKITTY!: I got avatars who turned evil cuz of who they hung out with (grin) NONODEADKITTY!: (react) DrJanet: Yes, Mary Watkins speaks about this a lot iona: (lol) DrJanet: in Imginal Dialogues. debc: well sure, writers were immersing themselves in text long before vr. Phillip: do our avatars exist when we are not in our virtual worlds? Henri: and readers too DrJanet: Yes, mine do. iona: and if you buy the idea of symbolic interactionists... DrJanet: They exist in the dream realm iona: you are bound to see how this could be Bruce: speaking of writers, we have a large-ish archive of web-writings on this at: DrJanet: when my ratava sleeps. Bruce: http://www.ccon.org/hotlinks/phil.html iona: in some worlds. i like muds for that reason... NONODEADKITTY!: I've never dreamed about my avatars iona: you can find someone asleep NONODEADKITTY!: that I remember anyway Henri: thanks, bruce DrJanet: I dream frequently iona: no? i've dreamt graphic avs, muds avs, the works (g) DrJanet: of my avatar's lives and emotions Bruce: web tour? DrJanet: interesting iona: ah, i just saw the time! (grin) DrJanet: I m so sorry but I must leave. iona: maybe we should conclude for this session? DrJanet: I have an appointment in Dreamscape Henri: time moves fast, didn't we talk about this last time? DrJanet: with the Luau host and need to leave. Bruce: will someone post this to the www.ccon.org SIG site? iona: those who would like to head to the mud, hang around (grin) iona: (lol) yep henri Bruce: It was great dialogue and food for future thought! DrJanet: Thank you everyone. Edith: Thanks, all! iona: thanks for allowing us to discuss your paper janet DrJanet: Such interesting issues were raised for us to Henri: yes, was wonderful, I enjoyed it. DrJanet: continue at fuure discussions. Edith: Thanks janet, especially! DrJanet: So did I iona: (grin)(jump) Bruce: thanks Janet iona: thanks to all of you for coming (grin) DrJanet: Thank YOU all. (bow)(bow)
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